B. Dubia Theory 2 month results

[demon amphibians]

So i started an experiment about 2 months ago to find the answer to the question. DO ROACHES REQUIRE HIGH PROTEIN DIETS? this includes dog food, fish food and cat food. I have 6 containers with 3 equal sized roaches ranging between new born and up to 1 inch long. each container with 10 roaches in each. 3 containers i fed nothing but fruits and veggies the other 3 i gave cat food, fish flakes and dog food along with fruits and veggies.

What i found was no difference in growth. overall which is the exact result i was expecting to see. In fact the vegetarian roaches have a healthier appearance. (Looks like there exoskeleton structure was less flaky and clean so to speak)
out of the high protein containers i suffered 4 deaths. out of the vegetarian containers 0 deaths.

for these two months i added none nor took away from one of my breeder bins. normally in one month i got 2,000 babies out of it. For the 2nd month of the experiment I got over 5,000 babies, this is a 60 percent increase. which the theory that high protein hinders breeding has a little more evidence now.

Now when i moved the babies into my nursery bin for one month feeding nothing but oranges. the day i moved them into the larger nymph bin a majority of them were already almost 1/2 inch in length. they actually grew faster then my experiment roaches that i had in the containers. And i only fed them one type of food that has almost no protein at all.

Out of the primary bin when i fed high protein foods i normally pulled out 40+ dead roaches out each cleaning, this did not include the two breeder bins . Since i have been feeding them nothing but fruits and veggies i have cleaned my bins 4 times i have pulled out 20 dead roaches total for all of my bins. This is a huge difference.
I know that this experiment is very inconclusive. But my theory is greatly swaying in the direction of being correct.
I am personally convinced. You would have to see for your selves to truly understand the differences that i am seeing through this experiment. even though i have thousands i totally believe even someone with a colony of 300 will be able to see the difference.

This concludes my experiment gotta get ready for the San Diego reptile show.. however a new experiment is about to begin.......

If any one has any questions or inputs please feel free. Your opinions are highly encouraged. With this i would like to thank Yoshimi and Jeff for there helpful advice and support.

[Meefloaf]

i'm looking to set-up a feeder culture of pallid cockroaches and i personally was going to feed them my veg and fruit scraps (also got family and friends who work in supermarkets, so can get free stuff thats about to be chucked), but read stuff about giving them fish/dog/cat foods. personally i'd prefer to keep it natural, surely they'll be tasty enough

[Mentat]

Thanks for the information ! Will try veggie/fruit diet with my roach colony and note results here in a few weeks .

[JeffreH]

Very cool DA - glad you are seeing some notable results. It will be interesting to see the net effect on larger sample sizes.

I'll be in Amazonian rainforest for the next two weeks but I'd like to be updated on anything new in the workings on this experiment. If you can get some solid numerical data on everything you are testing fo; I might be able to generate some hypothetical population models for each test group in order to see how statistically significant your data is and I can model the average difference after X replications seen between each experimental group. Modeling isn't going to yield real-world, conclusive data in its own right... but we can run something like 1000 replications and see a sort of hypothetical population growth rate to compare with each group.

[demon amphibians]

certainly Jeff. I will do the best i can to get the most detailed information I can. Just PM me and give me details on how particular you want this information annualized I just bought about 4 dozen different sized containers for an upcoming sale in July so i have plenty of material to work with now.

[demon amphibians]

My next experiment will be on cannibalization between hissers and dubia. To better find out if they can truly be housed to gether. Like the last experiment, i will have many containers with a variation of different conditions to get a more certain result. When i start i will give the full details and pic's. And at the end a solid answer to the question.

[demon amphibians]

So just as an update on the protein theory. It has been about 3 months since i started giving nothing but plant matter to my roaches. And as of a week ago i have really begun to see the difference in big ways. I have only added about 150 new breeders to the colony with in the month so my number reproduced would naturally be larger then before. Anywhere from 500 to 1500 a month. But the new roaches i place in the breeder bin takes about 2 months before i start seeing this improvement. Anyhow I did my normal 2 week harvest and which normally i get about 7000 total sometimes less sometimes around 8,000. That is about half of what i should be getting. last month i harvested about 10,000 for the month which isn't bad but it is 8,000 less then where i should be and it was twice the improvement from when i was feeding protein. for this two week cycle i harvested over 20,000. this is with 1200 breeding females. IF i have this same out come a week from now when i harvest i will be producing 40,000 babies each breeding cycle that is 4,000 more then where i should be at with the number of breeders i have, if they each have 35 young each batch. so i am getting close to 400 percent more than i was when i fed protein. now my first assumption is i am just getting lucky but i took a sneak peak today at my breeder bin and it is looking like another 20,000 plus harvest.
my point in all of this is protein is bad news when you mix with dubia. at first i thought a 60 percent improvement was the answer i was looking for but this month i have come to find that it will quadruple your production. As i explained before protein promotes mass death in your colony and does NOT contribute to a speedy growth. I have also had conversations with people who will swear up and down that females need protein to reproduce. This could not be more incorrect. I know i am just beating a dead horse repeating what i have already stated but this is a subject that needs reiterated. If anything i would say use protein as a control method if your colony starts to become to large and out of control.

[demon amphibians]

this is 10,000 this is where i stopped counting because it took just to darn long this is roughly half of what i harvested last week for a 2 week breeding cycle. the container they are in is 14 inch by 9 inch.

[Mentat]

...As i explained before protein promotes mass death in your colony and does NOT contribute to a speedy growth. I have also had conversations with people who will swear up and down that females need protein to reproduce. This could not be more incorrect. I know i am just beating a dead horse repeating what i have already stated but this is a subject that needs reiterated. If anything i would say use protein as a control method if your colony starts to become to large and out of control.

Thanks for information! I'm going all veggie myself for my small home use colony, just trying to reduce their deaths. Ten thousand baby roaches... wow; my whole colony does not reach 1 thousand !

[Heatheranne]

Excellent data! DA, what do you keeping your breeding tubs at?

[demon amphibians]

I keep my bins together in a closet in my extra bed room, where it is dark and warm. The bed room itself has a constant temp between 80 and 85F. The closet ranges between 90 and 100. This works great because when i add new species and extra bins i do not have to buy additional heat sources.

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

Great work!
Can you list what foods you have been offering,
I have 50 nymphs that I plan on trying to start a colony with,
I have a work shop that is vacant 99% of the time and I can keep the temps high H80-L90
What humidity's should I shoot for.

[Heatheranne]

Good idea. I keep my bin at 90'F currently, though a few weeks ago I turned it down a bit to control the breeding. I only feed out about 12 or so medium to adults a week and currently have around 500-600 estimated adults, likely more, and 3x as many babies. My turtles eat the small ones. I feed the larger ones to my pacmans and bullfrog.

[demon amphibians]

Great work!
Can you list what foods you have been offering,
I have 50 nymphs that I plan on trying to start a colony with,
I have a work shop that is vacant 99% of the time and I can keep the temps high H80-L90
What humidity's should I shoot for.

you should have excellent results with those temps. B Dubia can do well in a wide range of humidity. If you live in a dry desert area that should be the only time you experience problems with humidity. If you use water crystals at all, then you are probably giving your roaches perfect humidity levels. I wanna say 60 percent should be your mid point stay above 40 and below 80.

[demon amphibians]

Good idea. I keep my bin at 90'F currently, though a few weeks ago I turned it down a bit to control the breeding. I only feed out about 12 or so medium to adults a week and currently have around 500-600 estimated adults, likely more, and 3x as many babies. My turtles eat the small ones. I feed the larger ones to my pacmans and bullfrog.

They can get out of control if you let them. 600 adults are a lot, I usually try to feed off the extra males. My cane toads and bullfrog can sure put them away. My turtle loves them too. When you have that many breeders the ratio 8 females to 1 male is pretty close to the best breeding you can get. But i am sure you are already breeding them faster then you are feeding them off.

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

you should have excellent results with those temps. B Dubia can do well in a wide range of humidity. If you live in a dry desert area that should be the only time you experience problems with humidity. If you use water crystals at all, then you are probably giving your roaches perfect humidity levels. I wanna say 60 percent should be your mid point stay above 40 and below 80.

I plan on using one of my spare Zoo med hygrotherm controllers to requlate the temps and monitor the humidly.
For heating I plan on using a heating pad for human use set to low.
And the HVAC system in the shop set to 78F and to de humidify.

I currently have them in a small plastic tub with a few pieces of paper egg crate and feeding oats with flukers cricket meal with calcium.
on on side of the tub and water crystals on the other.

Since the nymphs are so small I don't put the food or the crystals in a dish they can't seem to get into it LOL

I plan on getting a large 18G plastic storage bin to replace the small bin I have now.

How often should I clean the set up. once a week?
Since I travel so much I plan on only feeding fresh veg when I am home and removing it before I leave. and check it daily to remove any
remains that might go bad and to prevent mold since I have read that mold is really bad.

Again thanks for the info. and I hope I didn't derail the tread too bad.

[demon amphibians]

All of those ideas sound great, dubia is a very easy species the only thing about them is you have to be patient.
If you are proactive in removing un eaten food items, with as many as you have you may only have to clean once every 4-6 months. The frass they will produce is not a bad thing to have. once it starts to get 1 to 2 inches deep is when it becomes time to clean. If it becomes to damp in your bin or starts to smell, it will be a good time to clean as well. the substrate should be relatively dry at all times. it is good to scan your bin for dead roaches from time to time as well, picking out all the dead which shouldnt be very many. Nothing like crickets. I clean all my bins once every two weeks but then again i have 10s of thousands per bin. The frass can pile up very quickly haha. Good for fertilizer though.

You didnt derail this thread. the whole purpose behind this thread is to provide the best information for breeding this amazing feeder insect. Not only food items are important, temps, humidity and husbandry are all equally important. If you have questions ask away my friend.

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

Thanks!,
I also have noticed that the nymphs will play dead,
Last night when I was transferring them from the small bin to the new large bin
I thought I had a few dead until I started to pick them out of the substrate and had them in hand
then they didn't let go of my hand and started to move on my hand LOL.

[Heatheranne]

They can get out of control if you let them. 600 adults are a lot, I usually try to feed off the extra males. My cane toads and bullfrog can sure put them away. My turtle loves them too. When you have that many breeders the ratio 8 females to 1 male is pretty close to the best breeding you can get. But i am sure you are already breeding them faster then you are feeding them off.

You're not kidding, lol! So many new nymphs every day. Hence the turning down of the bulb or turning off sometimes. I will likely sell some this summer.

I moved mine to a 20gal long. I feed at one end and keep a 75watt red heat bulb at other. I actually mist the very top of the tank every 3 days or so. They molt faster . Then I pick out the freshly molted ones for my frogs. I feed mine carrots, oranges, apples, bananas, romaine lettuce, water gel, and Cheerios. A few other things sometimes.

When will your next study be? Do you sell yours at the reptile shows?

[demon amphibians]

I will be conducting a study when i get more hissers. I kinda fed all my other ones off to my cane toads. But i do intend on breeding hissers whenever i can get my hands on some good prices. When i get these hissers i will conduct the study on hissers feeding on dubia. I know both species like the back of my hand and pretty much know the outcome of what this study is going to be. But i want to provide solid detailed info and try to determine where hissers will prey on Dubia and where cannibalism will occur for both species. Hopefully i can get this started in a couple of weeks.