Flies for FBTs - Any Probs??

[firefly]

I'm thinking of buying some Drosophila (flightless flies)for my FBTs, but am being put off by the woman I buy my hoppers from. I want my guys to have some variety and I don't like crickets.

She states that under no circumstances should I risk putting these flies into my tank as they lay eggs by the thousand and stink and make mess. Obviously this has put me off, but then someone must use them or they wouldn't appear for sale .

Has anyone used these for FBTS and if so please let me know how you got on??

Thanks

[Kurt]

They will not lay eggs all over the place, unless your cage is lined with decomposing fruits and vegetables. Their smell is minimumal, but rotting vegetation isn't. I have never fed Drosophila to fire-bellies, they seem a little bit small for them. I have used bean weevils, and that went over fine.

The problem with using fruit flies is that they can climb up any surface. So you need to make sure they just don't get up and wake away on you. A tank with ultra-fine mesh top or an enclosure with paper towels stuffed into any crevice or vent hole will prevent escape. Same goes for bean weevils.

[firefly]

Thanks Kurt - maybe I should try bean weevils then. I tried them with earthworms today, held in tweezers but they just turned their noses up. Eventually the worm got away and sank into the water.

I'll be glad when the weather warms up and I can go out at night and catch moths for them.

[Kurt]

The problem with using wild caught insects is that you run the risk of introducing GI parasites to your frogs.

[firefly]

Oh no, so no moths then?? How about spiders and caterpillars and stuff? The flies were being offered for sale on the internet

[SethD]

I have fed fruit flies to FBT's before. They are happy to eat them as they will try to eat nearly anything. They are to small for a dietary staple though. I wouldn't worry to much about introducing parasites with wc bugs either. Many people including myself have fed wc bugs from time to time for years. I have never heard a first hand account of it causing a real health problem. As long as you stay away from dangerous looking insects(bright warning colors, stingers, pinchers, etc.) your frogs shouldn't have a problem.

[Kurt]

The flies are ok and so are other commercially produced feeder insects. Just the trouble with collecting food in your yard is you run the risk introducing GI parasites and/or toxins from fertilizers and pesticides. It doesn't matter what kind of bugs we are talking about. Also some caterpillars can be toxic themselves. Hornworms, a type of caterpiller, for example, are commercially produced to feed herps and are safe for your frogs to eat. However, hornworms collected from your tomato plants will be toxic and not safe for your frogs to eat. Other species may be toxic regardless of what they eat.

[Paul Rust]

There are absolutely no problems with feeding fruit flies. They are very easy to culture and maintain. The only drawback to feeding to larger frogs is that they are small and you will need a lot. I have my cultures for one year at a time before I start again with a new bloodline. Do as Kurt mentioned and DO NOT FEED WC INSECTS. Is it really worth the health of your animals when you can so easily culture your own food? It is horribly bad husbandry to take a chance like that, IMO. They depend on you so do the right thing.

[SethD]

DO NOT FEED WC INSECTS. Is it really worth the health of your animals when you can so easily culture your own food? It is horribly bad husbandry to take a chance like that, IMO. They depend on you so do the right thing.

I am sorry, I am sure you mean well, but that is paranoia. That is usually how myths get started in the hobby, somebody says something that sounds plausible and others give dire warnings and repeat it as a undeniable truth without actually having had any first hand experience on the subject. If you have actually lost animals due to feeding wc insects feel free to correct me, but I strongly suspect you haven't and no offense, but I doubt Kurt has either. If not I would say blanket statement that it is unsafe to feed wc insects is one of those things that sounds good but in practice is not a serious issue as many long term amphibian keepers know. At one time cultured foods weren't as readily available as they often are now and almost everyone fed wc insects. It didn't cause problems then and it doesn't cause problems today. Indeed, the diversity of diet is often helpful by giving the frogs better rounded nutrition. Almost all wc amphibians have a certain amount of parasites, and quite often this is even true in captivity with CB frogs fed only cultured foods. They can pick up parasites from a number of things such as substrate etc. However very rarely do parasites cause a problem in captive amphibians. When they do it is generally only in stressed out individuals in poor health. If your caring for your frogs properly that isn't going to be the situation they are in. I have never experienced nor have I ever even heard of formerly healthy captive frogs being negatively affected due to parasites introduced by wc insects. Pesticides could theoretically be a danger, but in practice that danger is pretty small, particularly if your careful. Wild frogs and toads live in most most areas where pesticides are sprayed, they eat any bug that comes by, yet you don't see dead frogs all about or population dives after an area is sprayed. Rarely is there any effect at all. For example around the greater houston area I know of some subdivisions that are absolutely crawling with gulf coast toads come dusk. Many of the people in those subdivisions will put all all sorts of insecticides, fertilizers, and you name it on their lawns and of course the toads eat any insect they can catch. Does it hurt the toad population? Not a bit judging by their great abundance. In short, most frogs and toads are not super delicate or super easily poisoned by what may or may not be on or in wild insects. The tadpole stage is probably when frogs and toads are most susceptible to harm from pesticides. After that they are not nearly as likely to be affected.

[Paul Rust]

Seth, my comment was not a personal shot at you and we are getting awefully close the old (it's my frog I can do what I want) attitude. Are you suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about? This is a great deal more to me than a hobby. I know that casual hobbyists, you may or may not be, don't have the Save the Rainforest attitude that I have, and that's fine. My only point is that if it could possibly cause a problem for the animal, why risk it when it is completely unnecessary? People asking questions need to hear all sides of an issue. A dabate is not even warranted on this subject, you will do what you want anyway. I have never expereinced one of my dart frogs being infected with parasites from keeping wild snails with them however, I am not about to throw a bunch of snails in the enclosure and compromise their health just to say I have witnessed it. We do a fecal exam on every animal we have every month and always have a normal amount of parasites, yes I know they have a healthy parasite load at all times! Why would I change that or suggest someone else try it when I can prove under a microscope that what we are doing is working and healthy? The best interest of the animal should be the first consideration using the available information. I simply gave some available information.

As far as documentation goes, we are accredited as Amphibian Stewards by TWI, as such we have to follow regulations and procedures for the animals that we have registered. Of course we apply these standards to all of our animals. Under the food supply section of the Procedures and Guidelines Manual it sets forth the order of precedence for food.

First consideration: Cultured Food Items.
Second consideration: Purchased food items.
Last resort: Wild caught food items.

And as a matter of fact the manual suggests borrowing food from another steward before resorting to any of the other methods.
I certainly hope this helps clear up my stand on this, I don't disagree with people just to argue with them, I do my best to help them!

[SethD]

Seth, my comment was not a personal shot at you and we are getting awefully close the old (it's my frog I can do what I want) attitude. Are you suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about? This is a great deal more to me than a hobby. I know that casual hobbyists, you may or may not be, don't have the Save the Rainforest attitude that I have, and that's fine. My only point is that if it could possibly cause a problem for the animal, why risk it when it is completely unnecessary?

No, I am not suggesting you don't know anything about frogs or anything like that, but I am suggesting that in this particular case you are repeating dubious information which is based on theory instead of fact. That leads to creation of myths within the hobby. Actual experience does not bear out the theory that wc insects are particularly dangerous. Many hobbyists have been doing it for years. Sometimes it is even a help in promoting egg fertility when breeding difficult species. It was a common and accepted practice up through at least the 90's to use "field sweepings" until paranoia started to take over. If you would like to read a little bit more on the subject see this: Wild Caught Invertebrates as Reptile and Amphibian Food: Pesticide Concerns - Part 1 | That Reptile Blog He addresses some of the concerns you raise in a series of blogs on the subject.

As far as documentation goes, we are accredited as Amphibian Stewards by TWI, as such we have to follow regulations and procedures for the animals that we have registered. Of course we apply these standards to all of our animals. Under the food supply section of the Procedures and Guidelines Manual it sets forth the order of precedence for food.

First consideration: Cultured Food Items.
Second consideration: Purchased food items.
Last resort: Wild caught food items.

And as a matter of fact the manual suggests borrowing food from another steward before resorting to any of the other methods.
I certainly hope this helps clear up my stand on this, I don't disagree with people just to argue with them, I do my best to help them!

A bit off topic but to tell you the truth things like this is why I have had some concerns about TWI's amphibian stewards network since it's creation and have never joined. I like the basic premise of more organization within the hobby but while I respect Ed K and what others who have been involved with it from the beginning are trying to do and am sure the guidelines have done many hobbyists a lot of good they also tend to institutionalize some dogma that may or may not be correct. Your quoting from the "book" is evidence for that. Don't get me wrong I think many TWI members are quite knowledgeable and I thing the program has the potential to do quite a bit of good. On the other hand I also fear it has the potential to turn into something of a self feeding ego club which doesn't appeal to me. That is why I am and have been on the fence over it. I am at the moment still watching to see how things develop. For example the apparently theoretical breeding program for scaphiophryne gottlebei interests me, and if I see members having success with this species and other things that are not already commonly bred in captivity I may think about joining in spite of certain reservations. At the moment though for me personally I don't feel there is sufficient reason to join.

[firefly]

Oh dear, I appear to have caused a bit of a rift between you - I'm so sorry .

As I live in the UK I'm sure there aren't that many 'nasty' insects about, and our neighbourhood don't use pesticides in abundance in the garden thats why we have so many wild frogs, newts, dragon flies etc etc in our garden.

Thankyou for your comments, I will try some moths when the warmer evenings arrive, but maybe not caterpillars.

[Paul Rust]

Oh dear, I appear to have caused a bit of a rift between you - I'm so sorry .

As I live in the UK I'm sure there aren't that many 'nasty' insects about, and our neighbourhood don't use pesticides in abundance in the garden thats why we have so many wild frogs, newts, dragon flies etc etc in our garden.

Thankyou for your comments, I will try some moths when the warmer evenings arrive, but maybe not caterpillars.

Not a problem, I'm out anyway. The reason I stay on this site is the people really want to learn and do the best they can without a bunch of this kind of garbage. I appologize for even getting pulled into it. Best of luck with your frogs.

[Paul Rust]

If you don't create manuals, databases, guides etc. you have nothing but a bunch of people re-inventing the wheel and making the same mistakes all over again. Stating that it is wrong or tainted because it is in a "book" is crazy. I am talking about striving to use best practices. Anyone can say they are an expert in frogs after keeping a frog they caught that hasn't died yet. I've seen tree frogs kept in water with a little plastic palm tree in the middle of a 5 gallon tank. If I had told them that was not a correct way to keep tree frogs then using your logic they could counter me by saying "it isn't dead is it", well they are correct but is it the best thing to do? As far as a TWI ego club goes, the people I have been involved with are helpful, respectful, humble, and in it for the welfare of the animals. I only quote the "book" to demonstrate that this ground has been covered. I don't understand why you would dig in and defend using potentially dangerous methods when there is no need for it. Are you really suggesting that this blog holds more merit than ASN's manuals? The Association of Zoos and Aquariums say that they cautiously use wild insects. Thes are experts. I really doubt that they swing a net around and dump it into the cages randomly. Attempting to discredit my statements by attacking TWI is completely unwarranted. Perhaps if you did join you could use your expertise to help change these things that you don't agree with. I am not going to get in a mudslinging contest with you. I believe we are both in it for the same reasons and wouldn't want to tell someone to do something that would harm their animals. There is nothing wrong with us disagreeing and I respect your opinion, no need to get nasty and attempt to discredit each other, I simply have no interest in that sort of activity. Especially over a subject as rediculous as this. Bottom line, I am here to help people, nothing more.

[SethD]

If you don't create manuals, databases, guides etc. you have nothing but a bunch of people re-inventing the wheel and making the same mistakes all over again. Stating that it is wrong or tainted because it is in a "book" is crazy. I am talking about striving to use best practices. Anyone can say they are an expert in frogs after keeping a frog they caught that hasn't died yet. I've seen tree frogs kept in water with a little plastic palm tree in the middle of a 5 gallon tank. If I had told them that was not a correct way to keep tree frogs then using your logic they could counter me by saying "it isn't dead is it", well they are correct but is it the best thing to do?

I never said that having a "book" was wrong or even a bad idea, books and guidelines can be very useful and allow us to learn from others. The problem comes when so much emphasis is placed on what is written that what is observed tends to be ignored.

As far as a TWI ego club goes, the people I have been involved with are helpful, respectful, humble, and in it for the welfare of the animals. I only quote the "book" to demonstrate that this ground has been covered. I don't understand why you would dig in and defend using potentially dangerous methods when there is no need for it. Are you really suggesting that this blog holds more merit than ASN's manuals? The Association of Zoos and Aquariums say that they cautiously use wild insects. Thes are experts. I really doubt that they swing a net around and dump it into the cages randomly. Attempting to discredit my statements by attacking TWI is completely unwarranted.

First, I never said that there weren't good people in TWI, as a matter of fact if you read what I said I said I respected many of the people in it and I do. To state that I was "attempting to discredit your statements by attacking TWI" is just silly. I am not attacking TWI. I am merely still on the fence because while I do see potential for good I also see the potential for some things I don't much like. Secondly, I certainly have no interest in "discrediting" your statements unless they are in error and there isn't the slightest bit of person intent in my posts. Take a deep breath and settle down. Thirdly, yes I do place more value on mr. Indiviglio's experience's than on ASN's "manuals" on this subject as his experiences mirror my own and many others. He has been around the block a time or two as well. The ASN's manuals are just some ideas a few knowledgeable people agreed to put down as general guidelines. They are generally sound because the people who wrote them are knowledgeable but they are not perfect or set in stone.

I am not going to get in a mudslinging contest with you. I believe we are both in it for the same reasons and wouldn't want to tell someone to do something that would harm their animals. There is nothing wrong with us disagreeing and I respect your opinion, no need to get nasty and attempt to discredit each other, I simply have no interest in that sort of activity. Especially over a subject as rediculous as this. Bottom line, I am here to help people, nothing more.

Relax. lol I am not and have not been nasty, I have not been "attempting to discredit you" nor have I been slinging mud, In essence I simply stated that you were wrong, misinformed and overreacting to say: "DO NOT FEED WC INSECTS". Everyone is wrong sometimes and this is one case where you are. If you would try it you would find that out.

[Kurt]

As the number two guy here, I am going to remain neutral in this argument and may have to play referee at some point. I have much respect for both parties in this argument and I believe both sides do have valid points. Seth states there is no sufficient evidence that feeding wild caught insects is potentially dangers and there are advantages to do so, while NWAR (What is your first name? I find it weird calling people by their screen names) states that there is a strong risk involved in feeding field plankton from parasites and toxins.

My feelings are why bother taking the chance? I stick with cultured insects and commercially produced insects, avoiding wild caught insect all together. I don't think is being paranoid, just cautious.

[firefly]

I just wish I'd never asked

[Paul Rust]

Not your fault. We should have taken it offline. Keep asking questions. These little battles are how we all learn about all viewpoints, both sides always have valid reasons that should be looked into. Even though I am right! Just kidding Seth!!!!!