darts and toxicity

[Lija]

anyone knows anything about it? I'm talking WC in captivity. are they toxic to each other? in how long does it go away? why this is happen?

I'm looking for info of course because i have absolutely no idea about darts in general and also because of my nasutas http://www.frogforum.net/other-frogs...tml#post175581

any input is greatly appreciated!

[deranged chipmunk]

it does not take long. a month or so after their diet is changed, from what i have read. supposedly, there is an amino acid in their primary prey which causes their toxicity. once that is no longer part of their diet, they don't produce the toxins at such a high level any more.

[Lija]

thanks Bill, was browsing net now, found a few articles including that one, it says min 6 month quarantine is required which seems totally excessive Quality Captives - An Introduction to Poison Dart Frogs

[deranged chipmunk]

rats....i forgot it's an alkaloid. duh, i think it's an amino acid the frog produces to create the toxin. guess that point is kind of moot....lol i agree, 6 months does seem excessive.

[easternversant]

They've been shown to maintain toxicity for quite a long time, years even. I imagine this is because they have the toxins primarily in their skin and actively sequester it.

I'm not sure about your other question....but poison frog toxins can kill non-dendrobatids. This is just anecdotal evidence though.

[Lija]

my question was about darts so are you saying wc darts are toxic for years in captivity? do you have some evidence to back it up? that is very interesting.
as for nasuta if housed together with darts i think they would eat darts first and then die out of toxins... not like I'm ever going to test it.
the question is about toxicity of darts to each other. if you house together a group of wc darts - what would happen? how long would you quarantine them before they can be introduced to each other safely?

[easternversant]

Oh I didn't realize you meant just darts together. I assume you mean Dendrobatidae, but it likely doesn't matter between the frogs with toxins. The toxins they possess are all alkaloids and many of them are shared between different species and genera so it probably would not be an issue. I can't say for sure with regards to something like P. terribilis and another species that doesn't have batrachatoxin. Not that you'd have WC terribilis since Colombia hasn't allowed exports in quite a while.

[DartEd]

Most legally wild caught darts are quarantined by the importers prior to selling them to the public. These frogs are tested and treated for an assortment of illnesses and parasites. i believe they're also tested for toxicity.

That being said, there are a lot of illegal smugglers of darts out there that may not be treating the frogs with proper care. Wit regards to darts, I personally wouldn't purchase a wild caught frog without knowing its origins which would include paperwork. If all dart frog keepers adhered to this policy, frog smuggling would cease to exist and populations in the wild wouldn't be dwindling as quickly as they have.

[deranged chipmunk]

if only it was that easy. i know all of my mantellas are wc, even though they came from a reputable source. i know because there are only a handful of breeders out there, so 90% on the market are wc. just try to get paperwork on them. they go through so many hands before they get to us, the fbi wouldn't be able to track them. lol as far as new world darts go, i would only buy cbb from a reputable breeder.

lija, there's just really no way of knowing if the toxicity levels are high without testing. just go with cb and you shouldn't have a problem.

[slimninj4]

One of my little thumb imitators jumped on my hand when I was feeding him. So I guess this shows he was not poisonous or at least not enough to harm me.

[flybyferns]

No, that would never happen.
It's best to return them to the enclosure as soon as something like this occurs.

[Heatheranne]

If there were cause for concern on frogs you already have, you could use non-powdered gloves when caring for them or their enclosure.

[tylototriton]

Truthfully also, the toxicity of most of these frogs is mild (unless you plan on eating them). I've worked with several species in the wild and suffered no ill effect. Unless you're eating them or have open cuts on your hands I wouldn't expect most (excluding some of the Phyllobates and maybe a few others) from being dangerously toxic.

~Alex