Why is breeding different species of dart frogs among themselves so frowned upon?

[Mentat]

...In a hypothetical situation, where somebody were to cross-breed and keep all of the off-spring, how would that be look at? Good or bad?

If, let's say, you were a breeder who sells these frogs, I can understand the community not wanting to let cross-bred/impure breeds into the market, but what if it was all for personal use?

From personal experience will tell you that a person who breeds hybrids and keeps/culls all the offspring, does not care what others think of him in that regard. Funny , have difficulty answering because I've always assigned higher values to independence/privacy versus social acceptance; hence... my "I don't care position."

[deranged chipmunk]

it's kind of funny. the people who come up with new breeds of any animal are always considered outcasts and deviants, until their breeds becomes the "in" thing. then they become geniuses....lol unfortunately, for some animals, it could take decades to develop a strain that is not only new but stable. and stability is the key.

[DartEd]

I am personally on the side of not mixing species. My reasons as strictly a hobbyist, are for the ethical implications. I believe nature gave us beautiful animals that have hybridized in the wild, Natural selection has ensured that the only the fittest hybrids survive, and they've thrived. Why mess with it? I try to discourage inexperienced hobbyists from mixing species due to the complications that can be faced and the fact that many hobbyists aren't prepared to deal with these complications. We have to remember that we're dealing with animals and not inanimate objects. We can't throw away an animal because its not perfect, yet some hobbyists would release it leaving nature to do its thing.

Hawaii is over run by non native species of frogs that were introduced by uneducated importers, hobbyists, and others. They weren't aware of the implications of their actions or didn't care. This affects the ecosystem, most times in a negative fashion.

All that being said, I also believe in everyone's right to do whatever they want within the laws. If you feel this is something you need or have a strong desire to do, whether I agree or not is irrelevant. I respect your right to do it.

[Jeffww]

To people like me who enjoy collecting species for their intrinsic value or their biological uniqueness. Having hybrids circulating around can damage the hobby. When I pay for a species I expect it to be of pure line. It should be D. tinctorius not some random garage cross. The same issue happens with cichlids. We don't want hybrids because they're hard to identify and are often sold under the incorrect name.

I don't really have any ethical problems, but as a big fan of taxonomy. The risk of passing off hybrids as another species is too great.

edit: also on a similar note. I find it sort of reprehensible to keep the same species of frog from two very different locales. These frogs are likely to be only one of a few accessions available to hobbyists interested in the varying characteristics of similar species across areas, having them cross makes them lose value. Same goes with very similar subspecies.


So I guess it comes down to:
Having an aesthetic appreciation for the frogs. In which case you would want to interbreed to produce the hardiest and most colorful and unique animal.

Having a biological appreciation for the frogs. In which case you want to keep your individuals not only with just conspecifics but also from the same source.

But of course the health of the line is just as important as any of these considerations.

[flybyferns]

Friends,
Wow ! What a great thread. I go to bed early and missed all the fun. The moment is probably gone.

Actually, the best part is we can have this conversation without throwing things at each other.
I’ll take care of that when I see Ed this weekend.
How about you , Uncle Billy, why don’t you try to make the drive to White Plains this weekend----I can hit you over the head with my purse.

My thoughts.........not my practice.........are all over the place with this, mostly because I have a good imagination and not a genetics degree.

Seriously, I stay on the same side of the fence as Ed and Bill…. never mix species, morphs of the same species and even go so far as not to put pairs together that came from the same parents so to produce “healthy offspring” . ( ie like father and daughter ) I feel like it’s my responsibility. I look at it as black and white. As a 'rule'.

I’m surprised that no one has started a business in the dart trade utilizing some kind of a swap thing as it would help the overall genetic diversity of each species.

I’m sure ‘inbreeding” and poor husbandry goes hand and hand as well ? ( ie over breeding and a diet of nothing but FF !) Both situations, we know, can cause tons of problems with the frogs we keep and on the reproduction of healthy off spring. This is just as big a responsibility. Like anything else, sadly, some people just don’t care. Oh boy ! I'll stop there as I'm sure I'm walking on thin ice.

I always wonder?
I've not been on trips to view darts in the wild…but are we even reproducing frogs with the same exact clutch sizes, colors, and body size of the WC? And do they - ever- interbreed in the wild?

WE CAN’T keep taking them from the wild ….that a scary thought and a whole separate topic.
So now what ?

[flybyferns]

I'm sure like me you all enjoy reading as much as possible.

dendrobates.org is one of my favorite past-times.
You can go on forever and ever off the external links. ie Tree Walkers ...of which joining/donating is well worth the investment.

This is a link from the "About Us " pages with information about important and passionate individuals.
Sadly , I don't' think it has been updated recently and at this point, some of the personal account links are broken.

Dendrobates.org - About us

check out the "mint white" P terribilis -- This got me hooked !
http://www.peruvian-frogimport.com/

and this ! http://www.dendrobates.org/mysteriosus.html

enjoy the photo gallery !
http://www.dendrobates.org/photo_gal...bum/index.html

Lynn

[DartEd]

I'm glad you mentioned swapping off similar line frogs. Many breeders that I've met actually do work out trades with each other. Frogs can be interbred for a couple of generations without any degradation of quality or health. Brothers and sisters can be bred with no problems. The problems start to develop 4-5 generations down the line which is why some breeders will trade male for male from separate lines in order to preserve quality and health.