Why is breeding different species of dart frogs among themselves so frowned upon?

[Necromencer]

Well. I've been doing a bit of initial research on dart frogs and I was thinking of making my own vivarium for this summer, and I've come across a few threads about people who have been given/bought mixed frogs. Now, many people make it crystal clear to isolate them for they could breed and create 'hybrids'

So, my question is, what is so bad about hybrids?

*The only legit reason I've read so far was the hybrid could be born deformed and ill, subsequently dying shortly after birth.
** Seen a few arguments saying that hybrids are not what nature intended, feeble claim to be honest.
*** Seen others who say that hybrids look 'funky' and can never be sold.


So, is the hatred just ethical or is there a practical and legit reason why hybrids shouldn't exist?

[poison]

I personally don't think its our place to be making "hybrids". The animals are very pretty as it is. I hate hybrids but if they are made they do deserve a good home.

[Mentat]

... So, my question is, what is so bad about hybrids? ...So, is the hatred just ethical or is there a practical and legit reason why hybrids shouldn't exist?

Animal hybrids is a sensitive subject that seems to involve prejudgement and emotional responses/discussions. Just go back to your post and read the words: "feeble..hatred" and will see what I mean. There is nothing wrong with guns... I mean hybrids . It's what humans do with them!

With luck and genetic knowledge, humans can develop attractive animals by selectively crossing some species! Complications arise when the hybrids result fertile and the race to develop a "masterpiece" also generates thousands of lower quality offspring that must be culled... but usually are not. They flow into the market and the big problem is; are usually offered as true species contaminating it's genetic pool. Other times the breeder will not be able to market them and not willing to cull them... will release them in the wild, thus creating another set of problems.

If unlike "Fantasy" frogs; the Dart hybrids can reproduce, it's a real problem to the true species and a valid reason for Dart frog fans to be against them. What you do is your decision, but I hope at least now you can see the dangers an improperly managed breeding hybrid poses to the natural species populations. If someone wants to defend the later, even if they sound "feeble and full of hatred;" they are in their right. My recommendation to you is to keep true species and enjoy the gift mother nature has bestowed upon us.


BTW, I've kept and bred Central American cichlid hybrids for 10 years. They are very popular across Asia (where they originated) and have a small but aggressive support base in the U.S. Still have 3 adult males and after they die, it will be over for me and the ever changing Luo Han! Good luck and have a nice weekend !

[Necromencer]

Animal hybrids is a sensitive subject that seems to involve prejudgement and emotional responses/discussions. Just go back to your post and read the words: "feeble..hatred" and will see what I mean. There is nothing wrong with guns... I mean hybrids . It's what humans do with them!

With luck and genetic knowledge, humans can develop attractive animals by selectively crossing some species! Complications arise when the hybrids result fertile and the race to develop a "masterpiece" also generates thousands of lower quality offspring that must be culled... but usually are not. They flow into the market and the big problem is; are usually offered as true species contaminating it's genetic pool. Other times the breeder will not be able to market them and not willing to cull them... will release them in the wild, thus creating another set of problems.

If unlike "Fantasy" frogs; the Dart hybrids can reproduce, it's a real problem to the true species and a valid reason for Dart frog fans to be against them. What you do is your decision, but I hope at least now you can see the dangers an improperly managed breeding hybrid poses to the natural species populations. If someone wants to defend the later, even if they sound "feeble and full of hatred;" they are in their right. My recommendation to you is to keep true species and enjoy the gift mother nature has bestowed upon us.


BTW, I've kept and bred Central American cichlid hybrids for 10 years. They are very popular across Asia (where they originated) and have a small but aggressive support base in the U.S. Still have 3 adult males and after they die, it will be over for me and the ever changing Luo Han! Good luck and have a nice weekend !

Yes, I understand this subject is largely subjective.

Feeble in the sense that it is too subjective. I wanted to know the real ramifications of cross-breeding, moral and ethics aside. I won't be doing it, but I wanted to know what all the fuss was about.


Although I respect that nature should be left as it was intended, it's not a 100% objective and valid reason not to cross-breed. Sure, it should be enough to convince/motivate you out of it.

In a hypothetical situation, where somebody were to cross-breed and keep all of the off-spring, how would that be look at? Good or bad?

If, let's say, you were a breeder who sells these frogs, I can understand the community not wanting to let cross-bred/impure breeds into the market, but what if it was all for personal use?

[deranged chipmunk]

carlos brought up some excellent points. i am on both sides of the fence on it. if you are allowing species to intebreed for your own personal enjoyment, i say who cares. just as long as you understand that there could be risks to it and most likely nobody will be willing to offer advice on a sickly hybrid. as far as them mucking up the gene pool, well, if a breeder is buying his frogs from some dude on the internet, well, i figure the breeder gets what he has coming. lol

remember folks, especially everyone who has a dog, without hybridization man's best friend would not exist today.

i stated before in another thread, keeping the species true for quality control is the only reasonable explanation i can buy. if someone wants to purchase a certain morph frog, then that is what they should get. plain and simple. but remember, this is only MY opinion. and like they say, opinions are like butt holes

[deranged chipmunk]

duh....i had a brain fart, please disregard the dog portion of my comment. there is a difference between selective breeding and hybridization.

[Mentat]

...In a hypothetical situation, where somebody were to cross-breed and keep all of the off-spring, how would that be look at? Good or bad?

If, let's say, you were a breeder who sells these frogs, I can understand the community not wanting to let cross-bred/impure breeds into the market, but what if it was all for personal use?

From personal experience will tell you that a person who breeds hybrids and keeps/culls all the offspring, does not care what others think of him in that regard. Funny , have difficulty answering because I've always assigned higher values to independence/privacy versus social acceptance; hence... my "I don't care position."

[deranged chipmunk]

it's kind of funny. the people who come up with new breeds of any animal are always considered outcasts and deviants, until their breeds becomes the "in" thing. then they become geniuses....lol unfortunately, for some animals, it could take decades to develop a strain that is not only new but stable. and stability is the key.

[DartEd]

I am personally on the side of not mixing species. My reasons as strictly a hobbyist, are for the ethical implications. I believe nature gave us beautiful animals that have hybridized in the wild, Natural selection has ensured that the only the fittest hybrids survive, and they've thrived. Why mess with it? I try to discourage inexperienced hobbyists from mixing species due to the complications that can be faced and the fact that many hobbyists aren't prepared to deal with these complications. We have to remember that we're dealing with animals and not inanimate objects. We can't throw away an animal because its not perfect, yet some hobbyists would release it leaving nature to do its thing.

Hawaii is over run by non native species of frogs that were introduced by uneducated importers, hobbyists, and others. They weren't aware of the implications of their actions or didn't care. This affects the ecosystem, most times in a negative fashion.

All that being said, I also believe in everyone's right to do whatever they want within the laws. If you feel this is something you need or have a strong desire to do, whether I agree or not is irrelevant. I respect your right to do it.

[deranged chipmunk]

I still think there is a place for hybrids in the hobby. I think it should be left to experience breeders to develop hybrids, not just the average hobbyist. Imagine "designer frogs". Taking the best traits from species and selectively breeding them until they are stable. A frog that is normally elusive in an environment is now not only active all day, but no longer just terrestrial and uses all parts of the Viv.

As far as mucking up the commercial gene pool, I have a tough time swallowing that one. If some hobbyist bred a hybrid, he is most likely to sell it in an ad on a forum or craigslist, and it will most likely go to another hobbyist. Those breeders who are serious breeders aren't going to be buying these animals from Joe Schmoe off the Internet, they are like most of us and only buy from reputable breeders to diversify their stock. So, I'm not sure how the gene pool would get mucked up.

Here's a question, if a new morph is created during captive breeding, is it considered a true morph?

[Mentat]

...Here's a question, if a new morph is created during captive breeding, is it considered a true morph?

IMO it would be considered a "true" morph inasmuch there are no "false" morphs . A distinction with those being found in nature would be better made by calling those a "natural morph" or "naturally occurring morph" and those created in captivity could be called something relevant to their origin; like "captive morph" or "captive breed morph." Just saying !

[deranged chipmunk]

Captive breed morph works. now here's part two of the question. Since morphs are normally caused by environmental conditions, and a captive morph changed due to a captive environment, where does that lie in the scheme of things, since it would, for all intents and purposes, be a man made morph?

[Mentat]

Captive breed morph works. now here's part two of the question. Since morphs are normally caused by environmental conditions, and a captive morph changed due to a captive environment, where does that lie in the scheme of things, since it would, for all intents and purposes, be a man made morph?

Since Man is Man we have this drive to name things and have them fall within certain parameters or "boxes" and when something don't; it's like it needs fixing.

Don't think a "captive environment" will by itself create a morph, it's just too little time. Appears to me once that different looking frog comes to life, the breeder has to identify it's value and make a decision to try and "fix" the morph or let it go. Fixing would require selective breeding until that "captive bred morph" breeds true or mostly so.

IMO developing a new beautiful dart frog morph would bring fame and honor to hobbyist that does that correctly. By correctly, mean keeping records of all breed efforts and the specific morph origin, then sharing them with hobby .

Example: Let's say Lynn breeds her Mint's and I get a couple of them. Then I breed them and lo and behold; there is the first red colored Terribilis on Earth. After showing the world my prized frog, it grows and through selective breeding does pass the trait on. Even if recessive it's a doable thing and with Lynn's help we get the line going and call them "Terrible Strawberries." So we would have a bit of fame, some needed $$ to invest in frog options, and our own captive breed morph to share with the world. In the scheme of things, would say, that would be very cool !

[tylototriton]

I won't actually participate meaningfully in this conversation but;

I just recently saw a group of hybrid darts (presumably Dendrobates tinctorious x auratus) that are now owned by a very well know hobbyist. They were probably some of the prettiest frogs i've seen. Big like regular tincs, reticulated like some auratus and varying degrees of color from white to blue. They were awesome! I would love to have a tank full of them.

~Alex

(Please don't regard the above as an endorsement for creating hybrids...)

[Bruce]

I know, this is old... lol! But I agree with chipmunk, I think if a reputable breeder that truly knew what he/she was doing and has a vast understanding of genetics and dart frog behaviors/patterns, some truly stunning hybrids could come forth! Imagine an Amazonicus the size of a tinc? Or maybe the blues of an Azura with the stripes of a Leuc? Again, it should be left to a professional, and it would need to be stable, but man it could be cool...

[Heatheranne]

I am reading along, but have mixed opinions. I, myself, do not mix species. I'd say years ago before I really understood frogs, I would have been all for dart hybrids. I think I enjoy their "pureness", shall we say. I think their own natural beauty is what makes them fascinating. The colors they portray are so brilliant.

I'm not saying an awesome pink frog with turquoise leopard spots wouldn't be cool and that I wouldn't want one if I saw it, I'd just fear what would happen to the hobby...at what point would the hybrids stop? Would anything remain pure once the rainbows begin? Or would it become a contest to produce the prettiest and most unique? I'm not sure.

I do love a good debate .

[Mentat]

...I'm not saying an awesome pink frog with turquoise leopard spots wouldn't be cool and that I wouldn't want one if I saw it, I'd just fear what would happen to the hobby...at what point would the hybrids stop? Would anything remain pure once the rainbows begin? Or would it become a contest to produce the prettiest and most unique? I'm not sure. I do love a good debate .

Pink with turquoise leopard spots... now that's a pretty wild one Heather ! Based on my experience with cichlid fish hybrids; once it starts, it would not stop. Flowerhorns and other Central American cichlid hybrids have been around for over 2 decades and still attract fans, specially in Asia. New Discus fish hybrids and morphs appear every year and there is a worldwide demand for them.

Good news is that the frogs been hybridized (or morphed) are Darts (strongly discourage among hobby) or similar and they produce small manageable clutches. Also, Pacman and many other frogs are not easy breeders; so even if they hybridize and produce large numbers, its limited to very few experienced keepers or breeders.

What is needed is responsible breeders and hobbyists willing to cull any excess, unwanted or defective frogs; rather than passing a hybrid for a true species or natural morphs. If not, the only pure guaranteed species would be available in the wild, and we all know that the source can't be exploited forever.

Wild frogs are losing their ground to human habitat destruction; diseases are wiping out entire frog populations, and incoming global heating will change many habitats in the next 4 decades. Cold blooded animals like amphibians will have a very hard time dealing with it and many species will probably go extinct. And sadly, we might not be able to help much if we are too busy struggling with our own survival .