A question regarding the behaviour of Xenopus Laevis

[Astyanax]

Hello there, this is my first of possibly many posts on this forum,

Before I get into any detail, here are the parameters and details of my tank:

-Ammonia is 0, Nitrites are +0.3/ppm (at the moment), Nitrates are at a safe level
-Tank is Pentametical 60L (14us G)
-Substrate is small-large gravel from a petshop
-Two filters, on lowest setting; one is a stingray, the other is a fluvial. I will remove the stingray once cycling has stopped.
-Nitrogen Cycle is almost complete, Ammonia is being converted into Nitrites and they are lowering and turning slowly into Nitrates
-Plants are live, Elodea Canadiensis
-Lots of hiding places (not sharp, of course)
-Temperature is constantly 20'c
-Fed frozen bloodworms and very small Repotmin pellets
-Water changes every week, 20%

For two weeks, I've had them in with three goldfish, who were finally put into my pond so now they're on their own in the tank.

Now, info about my frogs:


Two African Clawed Frogs (Xenopus Laevis), anywhere from two weeks to a month old, they're about 1inch in size. Sex is unknown at this moment in time.

Now, I think that is all the information needed for the following question:

Is it normal for them to 'hover' near the top of the tank?

I've been studying them for a few hours a day, when I first got them, they were always hiding and only came out at night and when I fed them (as expected). But ever since I've removed my fish they seem a lot more active and playful, but I've also noticed is that they're always near the top of the water instead of being at the bottom, why is this?

Thanks for any help.

[mpmistr]

-Ammonia is 0, Nitrites are +0.3/ppm (at the moment), Nitrates are at a safe level

Toxic..

-Tank is Pentametical 60L (14us G)

Fine for a single frog.

-Substrate is small-large gravel from a petshop

Run the risk of the frog ingesting and becoming impacted by this substrate.

-Two filters, on lowest setting; one is a stingray, the other is a fluvial. I will remove the stingray once cycling has stopped.

Cycling doesn't stop really, that's the point of the cycle. Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate and then controlled via partial water changes.

-Nitrogen Cycle is almost complete, Ammonia is being converted into Nitrites and they are lowering and turning slowly into Nitrates

Correct, though the cycling should have been complete before adding livestock.

-Plants are live, Elodea Canadiensis
-Lots of hiding places (not sharp, of course)
-Temperature is constantly 20'c

Good.

-Fed frozen bloodworms and very small Repotmin pellets
-Water changes every week, 20%

This is fine, though I'd feed more reptomin and offer the bloodworms more as a treat if at all (known to cause bloating disease).

For two weeks, I've had them in with three goldfish, who were finally put into my pond so now they're on their own in the tank.

The goldfish had no business being in this tank; way too small for all these species. So good move there.

Now, info about my frogs:

Two African Clawed Frogs (Xenopus Laevis), anywhere from two weeks to a month old, they're about 1inch in size. Sex is unknown at this moment in time.

No way to know for quite some time. Two adult frogs will outgrow this system.

Now, I think that is all the information needed for the following question:

Is it normal for them to 'hover' near the top of the tank?

Yes but not all the time. They do enjoy to bask, rest at the water surface.

I've been studying them for a few hours a day, when I first got them, they were always hiding and only came out at night and when I fed them (as expected). But ever since I've removed my fish they seem a lot more active and playful, but I've also noticed is that they're always near the top of the water instead of being at the bottom, why is this?

Xenopus are nocturnal by nature, though in captivity do become active during all hours of the day. My frogs seem to rest at night. Being small juveniles housed with fish can be scary, they could see them as potential predators.. no scary fish = a better feeling of security for the frogs. Xenopus are predators but also a prey species, they are usually quite aware of predators or what they conceive to be predators.

If I had to run the numbers on how my frogs act I would say they spend 80% of the time on the bottom and 20% on the top. If you notice your frogs having trouble swimming or any other unusual behavior I would attribute it to the fact the tank is not fully cycled. I would dose with Prime and do frequent water changes in the future try to do a fishless (or in this case, frogless) cycle, you can google this for more info.

Thanks for any help.

Hope this helps.

[MatthewM1]

They breath air from the surface so if they feel comfortable they like to bask up there and just kinda relax as apposed to having to hold their breath when submursed

Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2

[Astyanax]

Toxic.. Yes, toxic, but I had no other choice, as I'll explain later.



Fine for a single frog. I will be getting a better tank, when I have enough money. They're are too small to need an upgrade



Run the risk of the frog ingesting and becoming impacted by this substrate. I am aware of this, I was thinking of getting bigger river pebbles when I upgrade the tank



Cycling doesn't stop really, that's the point of the cycle. Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate and then controlled via partial water changes. No comment



Correct, though the cycling should have been complete before adding livestock. Well some people have no other option do they? I had to take my goldfish of my mother (who kept three goldfish in a 10L bare plastic tank) and the two frogs from a friend who wanted to kill them. I don't know about you but I chose to save them, rather than kill them.



Good.



This is fine, though I'd feed more reptomin and offer the bloodworms more as a treat if at all (known to cause bloating disease. I'm going to wait until they are older until Repotmin becomes its staple diet.



The goldfish had no business being in this tank; way too small for all these species. So good move there. I know, but I explained this earlier.



No way to know for quite some time. Two adult frogs will outgrow this system. Yes, I am aware of this.



Yes but not all the time. They do enjoy to bask, rest at the water surface. Yes, this is why I was worrying. Because the fish have only recently been moved out, I haven't been able to properly analyse their 'new' activity. I just wanted to make sure this was normal.



Xenopus are nocturnal by nature, though in captivity do become active during all hours of the day. My frogs seem to rest at night. Being small juveniles housed with fish can be scary, they could see them as potential predators.. no scary fish = a better feeling of security for the frogs. Xenopus are predators but also a prey species, they are usually quite aware of predators or what they conceive to be predators.

If I had to run the numbers on how my frogs act I would say they spend 80% of the time on the bottom and 20% on the top. If you notice your frogs having trouble swimming or any other unusual behavior I would attribute it to the fact the tank is not fully cycled. I would dose with Prime and do frequent water changes in the future try to do a fishless (or in this case, frogless) cycle, you can google this for more info.



Hope this helps.

Yes, it did somewhat help, but I noticed a certain 'aggressive' tone with your answer. I've read extensively on the topic, but what I would like to do differs from the current reality. Sure, a fishless cycle sounds great but that wasn't really an option.

[Astyanax]

They breath air from the surface so if they feel comfortable they like to bask up there and just kinda relax as apposed to having to hold their breath when submursed

Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2

This makes sense, now that the fish have gone, they're move active and play a lot more. They're not hiding in the Elodea any more but basking near the top of the tank. I was just wondering if this was normal behaviour.

[Geoff]

They're not hiding in the Elodea any more but basking near the top of the tank. I was just wondering if this was normal behaviour.

In their natural habitat these frogs feed on terrestrial prey, which means they do spend time at the water surface. The second page of this article illustrates their behaviour: http://john.measey.com/pdf/Measey_feed.pdf

For what it's worth, a few of Michael's assertions above are based on personal opinion, which I've no doubt he sincerely believes but with which I disagree, particularly on stocking level, diet and substrate. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[mpmistr]

Not being aggressive in my tone, just trying to educate. Many of these frogs are lost because they are added to the system before it is completely cycled. It is extremely stressful to the animal, and if you do a forum search you will see that many do not survive.

I don't know what it feels like for these animals to be exposed to ammonia/nitrite but I would wager it feels much like being rolled around in fiberglass, so yes I really advocate cycling before adding live animals to aquatic systems.

Just trying to be straightforward with you, sorry if you took it the wrong way.

[Astyanax]

Not being aggressive in my tone, just trying to educate. Many of these frogs are lost because they are added to the system before it is completely cycled. It is extremely stressful to the animal, and if you do a forum search you will see that many do not survive.

I don't know what it feels like for these animals to be exposed to ammonia/nitrite but I would wager it feels much like being rolled around in fiberglass, so yes I really advocate cycling before adding live animals to aquatic systems.

Just trying to be straightforward with you, sorry if you took it the wrong way.

I appreciate the help, especially if you have experience with ACF. I find it quite offensive that you judge prematurely and try to 'educate' me. I've spent so many hours studying and researching ACF and frog keeping in general that it's not nice to read somebody think that you're totally ignorant on the topic.

My frogs look healthy and are acting 'normally'. Yes, I cannot see how the nitrites are effecting them on a molecular scale but neither can you, as you said.

I find it natural to advocate fishless cycling, but in my reply to you I explained that this was impossible and it was either have the fish put down or put into my care.

The only thing I haven't looked into is Xenopus Laevis in academia, I think College/University level of study is a bit too much for me a the moment, as I am quite occupied with my own degree. Nonetheless, I can say that I am quite comfortable with the basics and the chemistry of it all. Theoretically, I'm at a stable point, but as with everything, when you put the theory into practise you come across problems/questions. Hence this topic.

To some extent, it is my fault. I should have extended the introduction to the thread with more details, but I didn't want that to derail the topic. Funny, because that is what is happening right now. That is the problem with aquaria related forums, you post a question and if you leave the tiniest detail, the majority of comments will be 'moaning' about the errors in your tank, not that this is bad.

~

I do appreciate the reply, truly. But to what extent you're doing things correct is quite problematic. For a newcomer, with no experience, it's hard to find a stable opinion on an existing question. You say X but another person says Y, and both have experience with the subject.


Anyhow, I'll read the article and I'll keep observing my frogs, and see how it goes. I don't want my frogs to die either, naturally.

[mpmistr]

Simply pointing out that having any measurable amount of nitrite in your tank is toxic to your frogs. Nitrite is actually more toxic than ammonia and can cause you real problems. It's not a tiny detail to have a system that is not cycled with clawed frogs in it, they are very sensitive to nitrite and it can kill them, it would be irresponsible for me to tell you otherwise. If you find this offensive then so be it.

I would do water changes and treat the water with Prime since it detoxifies ammonia and even nitrite, I've had good luck with that product.

[Astyanax]

Yes, I know that Nitrite is more harmful than Ammonia and Nitrates. I've STUDIED the nitrogen cycle extensively and its effect of the biosphere of my tank.

I KNOW this, I find it offensive that you point it out to me. Why are you telling me the obvious? Should you tell me that these frogs have lungs? That they're name is in fact of Ancient Greek origin and not Latin (like many sites claim).

I had to do a cycle with fish, it was either that or have them put down. I think I've reiterated this a few times now.

Again, you're correcting me and 'educating' me, by saying: 'I would do water changes and treat the water with Prime since it detoxifies ammonia and even nitrite, I've had good luck with that product.'

Sorry, but how do you know if I'm not already treating my water with Prime?

I appreciate the help, but do not patronise me please. This thread had only one question, which Geoff has answered.

I appreciate your concern for the frogs, but a fish-less cycle was out of the question. (why am I reiterating this?)

[mpmistr]

Yes, I know that Nitrite is more harmful than Ammonia and Nitrates. I've STUDIED the nitrogen cycle extensively and its effect of the biosphere of my tank.

I KNOW this, I find it offensive that you point it out to me. Why are you telling me the obvious? Should you tell me that these frogs have lungs? That they're name is in fact of Ancient Greek origin and not Latin (like many sites claim).

I had to do a cycle with fish, it was either that or have them put down. I think I've reiterated this a few times now.

Again, you're correcting me and 'educating' me, by saying: 'I would do water changes and treat the water with Prime since it detoxifies ammonia and even nitrite, I've had good luck with that product.'

Sorry, but how do you know if I'm not already treating my water with Prime?

I appreciate the help, but do not patronise me please. This thread had only one question, which Geoff has answered.

I appreciate your concern for the frogs, but a fish-less cycle was out of the question. (why am I reiterating this?)

Not really sure I am the confrontational one here. I was just trying to help and advise.

You obviously do not want help or advice and have mastered all things in regards to aquaria and herps.

Good luck to you and have a nice day.

[rodsboys]

I KNOW this

Why post here if no one can comment on your post? From the get-go you had a chip on your shoulder. You say you know it all and have done all this reasearch, but you mentioned several things that people with actual experience and knowledge would see as no-no's. Then you get pissy because someone tries to help you out? Not sure we need that sort of thing around here.
Going back to your first line in the first post, my answer to that is I hope not...

[Sunshine]

I have been sensing a lot of anger on this forum today. I know that it is easy to misinterpret tone when you are just reading what someone wrote. *sending out some love*
That sounds creepy...

[Jenste]

Going to jump in and go back to the frogs.

For now, and for a while, this tank will be fine for them. I do recommend a change of substrate to sand, bare bottomed, or large stones. Impaction is a risk with these little gluttons. The way they suck up their food like little vacuums it is very easy for a piece of gravel to go down in the excitement. Not only can this hurt their intestines, but it would be extremely painful to pass.

As far as diet, they have a better chance of growing into healthy frogs if fed the right food. It will also save you a headache later on of getting them to eat the Reptomin full time after being spoiled on the bloodworms. Some frogs will resist change and go on an eating strike. If they are already getting it and eating it, I would start cutting back on the bloodworms now.

If you luck out and end up with two males, this tank should be fine long term. Being considerably smaller than females, their bioload is not as significant as their big bodied ladies. If you have one or two females a 20 gallon long would be the best tank, if not larger.

I myself have been stuck cycling tanks with frogs. It is great that you have live plants in there but I recommend adding another water change midweek in just to reduce the amount of ammonia/nitrite in the water as their skin is extremely sensitive to burns.

And welcome to the forum! We love pictures here so please share photos of your frogs!

[Astyanax]

Why post here if no one can comment on your post? From the get-go you had a chip on your shoulder. You say you know it all and have done all this reasearch, but you mentioned several things that people with actual experience and knowledge would see as no-no's. Then you get pissy because someone tries to help you out? Not sure we need that sort of thing around here.
Going back to your first line in the first post, my answer to that is I hope not...

Trust me, you and that other fellow have tainted my view of this website, you more so. I wont be visiting this website after this post.

If you were to read my comments entirely, which I assume you haven't, you would see that I am quite comfortable with the basics (in theory, which I have already mentioned), however, applying theory to practise is always difficult.

I opened this thread asking one mere question about behaviour, not about anything else. I know nitrites are harmful, I didn't need somebody to point that out for me. If I genuinely knew that I was in the wrong, I would be the first to admit it and acknowledge my mistakes. Substrate for example, I acknowledge that my substrate isn't the best for them, same with tank size. I have no problem knowing that I need a bigger tank.

Yes, I am probably doing a few things that aren't the best for my frogs, finding and following the correct information is extremely hard, especially when it comes to fish-keeping. I've talked in person to an expert (he had about 40 year of experience and his grand-mother used to breed tropical fish in the 50's) whose advice differs from a few of the 'experts' on some online forums. Whose information does one follow? No matter what you do, there is always going to be somebody who corrects you because you're acting against what they do in their tank. Even in this thread I can see conflicting opinions regarding what is good and what not.

If I have made extreme no-no's which you have made an effort to point out, why do you people choose to patronise me, rather than kindly educate. I see that the first person who 'tried' to educate me had the best intentions in mind, but he must have thought that I was a complete idiot or ignorant.

Half of the problem stems from me not being entirely descriptive in the first post. I should have explained the entire situation before going on topic. But then again, why should I. Shouldn't you just answer the question and if you see something completely off, you briefly mention and comment on it, rather than solely commenting on other issues?

Apart from you and somewhat that other person, this community is great. All of the other posters have answered the question and have mentioned briefly a few key problems with my set up. I totally agree with them and I will take their information into account.

This is what I feel like:

Me: Hey, jow are you?

This community: Wow, do you realise the mistake you have made? How dare you spell 'how' with a 'J' and not 'H'. In fact, do you even know how to read? Do you know how the alphabet works. Actually, should I teach you about English grammar? It looks like this mistake in orthography shows how ignorant you are to the basics of the English language.

Me: It was a typo, I acknowledge my mistake, can you stop patronising me?

This community: Don't ever come back, we're only trying to help. You think you can speak English? Ha, how dare you make such a claim, you spelt 'how', an interrogative pronoun, with a 'J', blasphemy!


^ Slight hyperbole but I'm sure you get the drift.

Good bye, I'll stick to real expert's advice rather than on-line communities. They're too conflictive.

Thank you to the other posters in this thread, your help has been sound. I wish you and your pets good lives.