Mutant questions?

[herpetolocrazy]

Hey guys, I've heard that the only way to get mutant pacmans is to breed a blue with a blue...but is this true? Is it really just a gamble, kind of like crested geckos? I have a strawberry and a samurai phase 2 blue cranwelli and would love to get some sort of odd morph or mutant out of them. Is this possible? Thanks in advance.

[Mentat]

What do you refer as a mutant Pacman? If it's other than normal green/brown color variations; there is very limited information available. Although not a breeder; from what I've read, there is not a dominant/recessive gene play; but more of a mixed output when crossing colors.

For example from a male albino and a normal green female cross, the published results were: browns (light & dark); greens (all shades); and albinos ( pink, red, gold & green). For pics see: PACMAN FROGLETTS 2010 Photos by JNJIvoryReptiles | Photobucket. Obviously something else other than dominant/recessive genetics is going on; maybe a mix of incomplete dominance, co-dominance, or multiple gene interaction.

It's my experience (and imagine it's same with frogs) that hybrid fish breeders are very protective of their experience based knowledge. What business person would not protect their intellectual property? Obviously, the sad result of that conduct to others, is that the information is not readily available as scientific published articles are. Maybe you get lucky and experienced breeders in forum give their insight to your questions. Good luck !

[mikesfrogs]

These are mutants

Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2

[Locascio]

Hey mike thos are from a samuri x sumuri breeding?

[mikesfrogs]

Yes

Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2

[Mentat]

These are mutants...

Thanks Mike ! Got the idea... and personally don't find them as attractive as non-mutants. Imagine some people will find them unique and like them... or do breeders tend to cull those?

[MatthewM1]

Imagine some people will find them unique and like them... or do breeders tend to cull those?

Those are the ones that sell for the big bucks actually

Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2

[mikesfrogs]

Only a few have frogs genetically able to produce mutants. I have a male here that does produce them. Its very rare

Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2

[Raya]

What is the difference between a color morph and the mutants? I mean, I see a big difference in colors and pattern (seems really random with mutants?) but how do they differ geneticly?

[mikesfrogs]

They change color. I've had ones start out as brown and green and they were solid pink by the time they were adults. I don't think anyother species does this

Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2

[Gnag the nameless]

My god... I'd love a mutant pacman frog. Very cool colorations, in my opinion, and the whole mutant idea just sounds interesting.

[FrogGangOrCroak]

Could there be a possibility that mutants are caused by the company Samurai Genetically altering the genes/color pigments in the Samurai blues?

[Justin Bailey]

I don't beleive so. I worked on a project with Bob Clark that involved that method and it did not turn out. Im positive this is the result of several generations of line breeding.

[FrogGangOrCroak]

In all respect pythons and horned frogs are pretty different. If that is the case why doesn't this occur with any other morphs of horned frogs. Just the Blue phase I thought.

[GrifTheGreat]

I also believe they tampered with the genetics of the Sam Blue cranwelli. Lets face it. There is no blue coloring what so ever in any of the species in the Horned Frog family. It just doesn't appear on any other except the Japanese line which can also pinpoint that something is off. I mean come on! The Frog Ranch could have produced a Blue morph if in fact this is a genetic trait that already exists it would eventually appear in other cranwelli aside from only those offered in Japan. It is an unnatural color that just doesn't appear. Probably was designed after the Frog Ranch produced Albinos in order to compete with Kim.

Do I have proof of this? No, but it speaks for itself. Somewhere their genetic have been tampered with, but that doesn't mean that I don't like them. I own an adult male Sam Blue and yes the color is very appealing to the eyes, but it definitely does not look natural by any means.

Of course Nuance or Yusuki will claim them to be produced from selective breeding or that there was no genetic altering involved in their production. How they came to be will be a secret and they definitely won't let that out. Could be bad for buisness and could give any willing breeder an edge to produce F1 Sam Blues.

[Rambo]

You have no evidence supporting your opinion griff. How are we suppose to just buy what your saying? I believe nuance and yusuki are brilliant and maybe one step ahead of all of you of course he's way ahead of me. For being a moderated I'd expect a better opinion with atleast evidence supporting what your saying.

[Locascio]

You have no evidence supporting your opinion griff. How are we suppose to just buy what your saying? I believe nuance and yusuki are brilliant and maybe one step ahead of all of you of course he's way ahead of me. For being a moderated I'd expect a better opinion with atleast evidence supporting what your saying.

Lol comon bro you really think your opinion is worth the time it was takein to type it? what have you done in the frog world that would make you think you can jump on this forum and bash a member that hase more exp than you in EVERYTHING that is frog and say something like that you sir are a fool.. i have 0 respect for you theres no telling what happens in other countrys there is diffrint regulations and you can pritty much do what ever you want so yea i belave Grif might be on to something in reguards to Genetically altering the genes/color pigments in the Samurai blues. there just no telling what could be done with enuff money and effort

[Sunshine]

Grif is a very well known and trusted member on this forum. I trust anything 'they' say. Please don't bash other members on the forum. I don't know what's going on lately but I have noticed a lot of hostility on this forum....

[GrifTheGreat]

You have no evidence supporting your opinion griff. How are we suppose to just buy what your saying? I believe nuance and yusuki are brilliant and maybe one step ahead of all of you of course he's way ahead of me. For being a moderated I'd expect a better opinion with atleast evidence supporting what your saying.

Excuse me? Didn't I just say everything they do breeding wise is held secret. Also didn't I state that none of these species have this particular color naturally? Are you offended by my post somehow? There are no studies on this therfore there is no evidence to support what I've said. Basically it is speculation, but as I've said there are no blue Ceratophrys naturally. How many wild cranwelli has anyone seen that are blue or even have a hint of blue? Zero! Now natural selection may play a role in this, but a blue frog would be difficult to see at night and since these frogs are nocturnal there is a chance that any that may emerge naturally blue could have been found alive.

I'm not sure why you want to attack my credability. Or am I not welcome to post here by your nonexistent authority here

Lets get one thing strate. Just because I'm a moderator doesn't mean I have all the answers to everything out there nor does this mean I have access to whatever might suit your need for more information that no one here can provide nore will anyone outside of Nuance. If you ask them they will tell you it is selective breeding that produced them. In that case then any species with this nonexistent color should be able to produce a blue version/morph. Closest they have are Blue Line Ornates which I also have, but this is just a slightly teal stripe down their back and not an entire frog covered in blue. Mike Matson used to have a female which had very pronounced striping tbat was very seafoam green in appearence, but like I said it was only the stripes which most of the time fade more to green.

Stripes are another thing about the Sam Blue. THEY DON'T HAVE THEM! All cranwelli have a form of striping. 3 stripes in all usually. 2 lateral and 1 dorsal. Now I never claim to be an expert nor am I a scientist and I don't know what I may have said that sparked a personal attack on me, but might I suggest tbat if you feel that anything i said is not good enough then by all means GO FIND THE ANSWER YOURSELF! I don't have all the answers to lifes great mysteries, but I do know what I see before my eyes.

Apparently Kim purchased a bunch of frogs from Nuance and sold them or sent them back because they had been tampered with genetically which Frog Ranch does not do.

[Justin Bailey]

Whhoooaaa! This conversation just got heated! haha. I do beleive that genetic testing could always be a possibility, however genetic mutations occur in nature all the time. It may have turned out to be a once in a life time occurance for this particular mutation and that would explain why all of their frogs don't carry the gene. If one was to spend the money to genetically enhance frogs for one mutation, why not utilize those same standards for all of their frogs?