Calcium with vitD3 or without vit D3?

[guilletto]

What calcium must i buy for a milk frog? With vitamin d3 or without it?

[Eric Walker]

With d3. D3 helps with the absorbtion of calcium

[Heatheranne]

Definitely with.

[guilletto]

OK! thnk you so much! this forum is the best i ever discovered xD my frog will grow very well!

[Heatheranne]

You're welcome

[tgampper]

You may also consider this important point"

"Phosphorus is also an important component of bones and must also be included with calcium in the diet.Consequently, amphibians must have adequate calcium and phosphorus in their diet, and sufficientVitamin D3 must be supplied through the diet or by UV-B lights."

Source: UV-B, Vitamin D3, and amphibian health and behaviour Dr Robert Browne, Postdoctoral Fellow, robert.browne@gmail.com; and Dr. Francis Vercammen, Veterinary Officer,Center for Research and Conservation, Royal Zoological Society of Antwerp, Belgium.

[CJ PELCHER]

why would they even make it without D3?

[guilletto]

You may also consider this important point"

"Phosphorus is also an important component of bones and must also be included with calcium in the diet.Consequently, amphibians must have adequate calcium and phosphorus in their diet, and sufficientVitamin D3 must be supplied through the diet or by UV-B lights."

Source: UV-B, Vitamin D3, and amphibian health and behaviour Dr Robert Browne, Postdoctoral Fellow, robert.browne@gmail.com; and Dr. Francis Vercammen, Veterinary Officer,Center for Research and Conservation, Royal Zoological Society of Antwerp, Belgium.

You re absolutely right ! I'm studying vet and the calcium is integrately relationated with phosphorus. Depend on the spp, there must be a suitable proportion

[flybyferns]

https://aark.portal.isis.org/researc...tamin%20d3.pdf

https://aark.portal.isis.org/researc...0nutrition.pdf

above link ------------includes---------- the quoted information below :

>Nutrients
The proximate composition for feed, including the calcium/phosphorus ratio and lipid/protein ratio, has
mainly received the focus of amphibian nutrition. However, recent studies have shown that the
adequate provision of micro-nutrients may be major requirement for balanced nutrition. In particular
with current knowledge these are Vitamins D3, Vitamin A, and carotenoids. The levels of micronutrients, minerals, and protein and lipid percentage composition and type all vary between prey
species. There are also general regional differences in prey nutritional composition. For instance in
cold climates all thermo-regulators tend to have higher levels of unsaturated fatty acids to retain
metabolism and flexibility, and in tropical rainforests with leaching the levels of minerals and vitamins
may be lower. There is an established commercial industry for the production of amphibians for
consumption. The development of this industry has been supported by nutrition studies of both larval
and adult stages.
Lipids
Lipids (oils and fats) are important in amphibian diet both in their quantity and quality. Too greater
percentage of lipids in the diet can lead to either obesity, or an imbalance in the diet in respect to
protein or other nutrients. Not only must the amount of lipids be optimal but also the types of lipids.
In particular the amounts and types of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids must be balanced.
Insects range from less than 10% to more than 30% fats on a fresh weight basis, and are relatively
high in the essential C18 fatty acids, oleic acid (18: 1), linoleic acid (18:2) and linolenic acid (18:3)
(DeFoliart, 1991). The Coleoptera (beetles and weevils) are generally particularly high in C 18:2 while
the Lepidoptera (butterflies and moths) are particularly high in C 18:3 (Fast, 1970).
The essential fatty acids, provide precursors for the hormone-like compounds needed for localized
metabolic regulation in many tissues, to regulate cellular lipid metabolism, are required for growth
(Dadd 1983), and regulate the fluidity of the membranes in thermo-conforming organisms (StanleySamuelson et al 1988). Vertebrate metabolic studies show that vertebrates are poor at metabolising
new forms of fatty acids and so they should be provided in diet. For a discussion of unsaturated fatty
acids in diet see Li et al. (2009). The best current method to provide greater amounts of unsaturated
fatty acids, and probably all special and micro-nutrients, is through feeder invertebrate dietary
supplementation (Li et al. 2009).
Protein and carbohydrates
As insectivores amphibian diets will naturally be 30% to 60% protein (McWilliams 2008). For instance
Commercial diets for the bullfrog (Rana catesbieana) showed pathology at 16% protein and good
health and growth at 23% protein (Coppo and Mussart, 2005). Martínez et al. (2004) showed that
Rana perezi juveniles showed the best growth and health when fed trout fodder with a composition of
46% protein, 22% lipids, and 13.5% carbohydrates. 45% protein was found the optimum for R.
catesbieana tadpoles (Carmona-Osalde et al., 1996). There is probably only a negligible amount of
calorific value in carbohydrates from amphibian diets. Amphibians fed diets with excessive fibre have
developed intestinal blockage, but the effects of the amounts of digestible carbohydrate is unknown
(McWilliams, 2008). Minerals
Macro-minerals; Calcium and phosphorus
For example, Yoshimi et al. (1996) found that frogs crickets raised on cricket diet then dusted with
mineral supplement developed hypercalcemia and tissue mineralization from too much of either
dietary calcium or vitamin D3. Calcium can be absorbed through the skin of adult amphibians
(Kingsbury and Fenwick, 1989), and through the gills in larvae (Baldwin and Bentley, 1980).
Micro(trace)-minerals; Iodine deficiency in tadpoles can cause spindly leg and retard or prevent
metamorphosis (Wright and Whitaker, 2001).
Vitamins
Vitamin A
A deficiency of vitamin A can develop in captive amphibians if they do not have a source of dietary
vitamin A. Amphibians cannot synthesize carotinoids, including vitamin A (retinal) (Wright 2006).
However, it is not known if vitamin A precursors are dietary essentials. Vitamin A promotes healthy
skin, it is a yellow pigment in amphibian colour (Frost-Mason et al. 1994); and required for calcium
metabolism. Too little Vitamin A (hypovitaminosis A) causes “short tongue syndrome” (reduced ability
to capture live prey with the tongue), with lethargy, weight loss and finally death (Li et al., 2009;
Pessier et al., 2005; Wright 2006). Excessive Vitamin A develops in captive amphibian animals
through feed enriched with too much vitamin A; amphibians fed mammalian livers and/or whole
immature rodents are at risk for developing hypervitaminosis A include NMBD, anemia, liver disease
and weight loss (Crawshaw 2003). Li et al. 2009 showed that enriching crickets with fish oils and
carotenoids improved growth and prevented squamous metaplasia.
Vitamin D
For a review of Vitamin D3 in amphibians see Browne and Antwis (2009), and in ‘UV-B, Vitamin D3
and amphibian health and behaviour’. Too much Vitamin D3 (hypervitaminosis D) can come from over
supplementing feed or from diets of goldfish (Frye 1992). A deficiency of vitamin D3 can be related to
a dietary deficiency and low UV-B and causes bone deformities, seizures, oedema, poor growth,
reproductive problems, muscle weakness, anorexia, gut stasis and constipation. Hatching failure can
occur even in females without sufficient exposure to UVB on an adequate diet with adequate vitamin
D3 and calcium (Ferguson et al. 2002). >

other:
http://www.academicjournals.org/jpap...%20et%20al.pdf

lighting:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

below - current lighting information/experiment

http://www.anapsid.org/jamesball.html

gut loading/cricket enrichment
http://www.bioteck.org/Amphibian%20H...Enrichment.htm

[guilletto]

good investigation work! =) being spanish (but future vet) i have understood every word of the Calcius' physiology.

[Heatheranne]

The goal is a balanced diet with balanced supplementation.

Phosphorus is also needed for healthy bones, which is why we give a multivitamin supplement once a week. Remembering though that phosphorus can have an inverse absorption to calcium, which in general can mean that when calcium levels are high, phosphorus levels can lower. Same in reverse, when phosphorus is high, calcium can be low. This is also why we do not use calcium and phosphorus supplements on the same day. Absorption may be altered. We must be carful with the balance.

Amphibians tend to have lower calcium levels in comparison to low phosphorus levels in captivity. This is due to the limited variation in their diets we provide. We are also lacking absorption of electrolytes through leaching of waterbeds that they soak in and via the rainwater nutrients picked up as it falls and runs off of various mineral rocks.

We also know that vitamin D3 helps with absorption of calcium and phosphorus. Vitamin D can be produced by animals with absorption of UVB light from the sun. It is also synthetically made for supplementation in the form of an oral pill or powder.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_d

This is an article on human ratios of calcium and phosphorus, but the theory applies with smaller internal concentrations in comparison to smaller amphibians. Keep in mind, amphibians are cold-blooded animals so some processes may vary. Absorption and internal storage of the nutrients still applies.http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...d/calcium.html

Another point is that calcium levels are directly related to blood protein levels. When blood protein levels drop, so do calcium levels. When we or amphibians stop eating for an extended period of time, our protein levels drop. You will here that albumin and prealbumin levels are low in animals with anorexia. The ability of an animals ability to absorb calcium when our protein levels are low is limited.

When blood protein levels drop, an internal shift of our internal bodily fluids also occurs. The viscosity of normal blood is higher due to the proteins (albumin) within the blood vessels when we have good nutrition of proteins. When we have good protein levels in our blood, due to good nutrition of protein sources (meats, beans, nuts, cheese, etc.) our fluids stay in balance and within our blood vessels. When muscle wasting from starvation occurs, blood protein levels drop, and fluids begin to shift. Seepage of our internal vessel water begins to leak out into the extracellular space. This is when edema (swelling) is observed. Frogs take in protein in the form of meat (crickets, worms, roaches, etc.)

The water within our vessels carries several electrolytes. The electrolytes carry ions, which have positive, neutral, or negative charges. Fluid balances from deficiencies are also affected. Sodium chloride (salt) levels in our blood help to regulate the fluid balances and electrolyte levels within our blood. It can fluctuate in and out of the cells to help is maintain balance. Potassium is also needed for cellular fluid balance.

The kidneys are also greatly involved in balancing our fluid levels and nutrients. Though, nutrients must be ingested and absorbed from the foods and supplements we ingest before they can be properly regulated. Organ hormone levels also assist in regulation. Ultimately through brain signals sent out when levels are altered.

We need varying levels of nutrients such as sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium in terms of their electrolyte chemical charges (ions) to regulate muscular control. Without these nutrients we cannot contract or relax any of our muscles, including skeletal muscles (which move our bones), cardiac muscles (which pump our hearts), and visceral muscle (which control the smooth muscle within our organs, such as our digestive system -altering motility).

This is where tetany from low blood calcium plays a role. Symptoms of low blood calcium (hypocalcemia) can include: numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, inability to control muscles including slowing of movements, uncoordinated movements, dragging of limbs, seizures, paralysis, heart attacks due to inability of the heart muscles to properly contract and pump, constipation, anorexia (lack of desire to eat), lethargy (sleepiness and weakness), edema/swelling, etc.

Because amphibians in captivity lack the calcium in their diets that they would have in nature, we must provide it, or they WILL die. It is a matter of time. Phosphorus is also needed, and is provided via a multivitamin.

MBD or metabolic bone disease is directly related to deficiencies. MBD can be stopped and treated if caught early. Failure to treat the deficiencies can cause illness, defects and paralysis, and death. The lack of calcium and vitamin D3 causes weakness, anorexia and can progress to seizures and paralysis.

We must, as good frog parents, provide our amphibians with these vitamins and nutrients for them to live a happy and healthy life. A multivitamin supplement is also needed in small amounts to provide the other essential vitamins and minerals needed for their bodies to perform vital functions, just like in all living creatures.

Remember, they are under our direct care and are trapped within the confines of our pretty little aquarium tanks. They cannot forge for their own foods or mineral-rich puddles. They only receive what we provide. Many insects eat leafy green plants, another vitamin-rich source for our frogs. In the wild, frogs eat a variety of insects and other animals. In turn, frogs eat what their pray eats. So you can see how they can get the nutrients they need. Frogs that eat larger prey will also take in calcium found within the prey's bones, to some extent. Other mammals ingest milk from their mothers, such as mice. Larger frogs will take in nutrients from these animals. The food chain continues and their varied diets in what they eat and what their prey eats, and this provides what they need to survive. Their absorptive skin allows them to soak up water and other electrolytes from surrounding water sources. Eating worms which ingest soil, provides trace elements. Nature provides them with an array of nutrients. Until we tear down their habitats, that is. But that's another topic for another day.

Seems complicated, right? The bodies of animals are quite amazing when you get down to the fine details. I could easily write a book, though that would take too much time.

These are just a few points to help everyone understand what happens with nutrient absorption, nutrition alteration, and a tiny bit about how the fluids can fluctuate.

Nutrition is key to all animals for good health. We have to provide them with what they need. Then we can enjoy their amazing beauty, silly quirks, and interesting lifestyles .

Sorry this was so long. I thought I'd break it down a bit for those of you who don't have a medical background so you can understand the "why" behind providing them with supplements.

Heather

[CJ PELCHER]

[QUOTE=Heatheranne;170953]The goal is a balanced diet with balanced supplementation.

Phosphorus is also needed for healthy bones, which is why we give a multivitamin supplement once a week. Remembering though that phosphorus can have an inverse absorption to calcium, which in general can mean that when calcium levels are high, phosphorus levels can lower. Same in reverse, when phosphorus is high, calcium can be low. This is also why we do not use calcium and phosphorus supplements on the same day. Absorption may be altered. We must be carful with the balance.

Ok between you and Lynn.... i feel like i just went through ADVANCED BIOLOGY again... hahah
But that doesnt explain why they make it WITHOUT D3

[Sunshine]

I am definitely not an expert, but I will guess it's for reptiles who already get D3 from their lighting?