Calcium with vitD3 or without vit D3?

[Heatheranne]

The goal is a balanced diet with balanced supplementation.

Phosphorus is also needed for healthy bones, which is why we give a multivitamin supplement once a week. Remembering though that phosphorus can have an inverse absorption to calcium, which in general can mean that when calcium levels are high, phosphorus levels can lower. Same in reverse, when phosphorus is high, calcium can be low. This is also why we do not use calcium and phosphorus supplements on the same day. Absorption may be altered. We must be carful with the balance.

Amphibians tend to have lower calcium levels in comparison to low phosphorus levels in captivity. This is due to the limited variation in their diets we provide. We are also lacking absorption of electrolytes through leaching of waterbeds that they soak in and via the rainwater nutrients picked up as it falls and runs off of various mineral rocks.

We also know that vitamin D3 helps with absorption of calcium and phosphorus. Vitamin D can be produced by animals with absorption of UVB light from the sun. It is also synthetically made for supplementation in the form of an oral pill or powder.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_d

This is an article on human ratios of calcium and phosphorus, but the theory applies with smaller internal concentrations in comparison to smaller amphibians. Keep in mind, amphibians are cold-blooded animals so some processes may vary. Absorption and internal storage of the nutrients still applies.http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...d/calcium.html

Another point is that calcium levels are directly related to blood protein levels. When blood protein levels drop, so do calcium levels. When we or amphibians stop eating for an extended period of time, our protein levels drop. You will here that albumin and prealbumin levels are low in animals with anorexia. The ability of an animals ability to absorb calcium when our protein levels are low is limited.

When blood protein levels drop, an internal shift of our internal bodily fluids also occurs. The viscosity of normal blood is higher due to the proteins (albumin) within the blood vessels when we have good nutrition of proteins. When we have good protein levels in our blood, due to good nutrition of protein sources (meats, beans, nuts, cheese, etc.) our fluids stay in balance and within our blood vessels. When muscle wasting from starvation occurs, blood protein levels drop, and fluids begin to shift. Seepage of our internal vessel water begins to leak out into the extracellular space. This is when edema (swelling) is observed. Frogs take in protein in the form of meat (crickets, worms, roaches, etc.)

The water within our vessels carries several electrolytes. The electrolytes carry ions, which have positive, neutral, or negative charges. Fluid balances from deficiencies are also affected. Sodium chloride (salt) levels in our blood help to regulate the fluid balances and electrolyte levels within our blood. It can fluctuate in and out of the cells to help is maintain balance. Potassium is also needed for cellular fluid balance.

The kidneys are also greatly involved in balancing our fluid levels and nutrients. Though, nutrients must be ingested and absorbed from the foods and supplements we ingest before they can be properly regulated. Organ hormone levels also assist in regulation. Ultimately through brain signals sent out when levels are altered.

We need varying levels of nutrients such as sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium in terms of their electrolyte chemical charges (ions) to regulate muscular control. Without these nutrients we cannot contract or relax any of our muscles, including skeletal muscles (which move our bones), cardiac muscles (which pump our hearts), and visceral muscle (which control the smooth muscle within our organs, such as our digestive system -altering motility).

This is where tetany from low blood calcium plays a role. Symptoms of low blood calcium (hypocalcemia) can include: numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, inability to control muscles including slowing of movements, uncoordinated movements, dragging of limbs, seizures, paralysis, heart attacks due to inability of the heart muscles to properly contract and pump, constipation, anorexia (lack of desire to eat), lethargy (sleepiness and weakness), edema/swelling, etc.

Because amphibians in captivity lack the calcium in their diets that they would have in nature, we must provide it, or they WILL die. It is a matter of time. Phosphorus is also needed, and is provided via a multivitamin.

MBD or metabolic bone disease is directly related to deficiencies. MBD can be stopped and treated if caught early. Failure to treat the deficiencies can cause illness, defects and paralysis, and death. The lack of calcium and vitamin D3 causes weakness, anorexia and can progress to seizures and paralysis.

We must, as good frog parents, provide our amphibians with these vitamins and nutrients for them to live a happy and healthy life. A multivitamin supplement is also needed in small amounts to provide the other essential vitamins and minerals needed for their bodies to perform vital functions, just like in all living creatures.

Remember, they are under our direct care and are trapped within the confines of our pretty little aquarium tanks. They cannot forge for their own foods or mineral-rich puddles. They only receive what we provide. Many insects eat leafy green plants, another vitamin-rich source for our frogs. In the wild, frogs eat a variety of insects and other animals. In turn, frogs eat what their pray eats. So you can see how they can get the nutrients they need. Frogs that eat larger prey will also take in calcium found within the prey's bones, to some extent. Other mammals ingest milk from their mothers, such as mice. Larger frogs will take in nutrients from these animals. The food chain continues and their varied diets in what they eat and what their prey eats, and this provides what they need to survive. Their absorptive skin allows them to soak up water and other electrolytes from surrounding water sources. Eating worms which ingest soil, provides trace elements. Nature provides them with an array of nutrients. Until we tear down their habitats, that is. But that's another topic for another day.

Seems complicated, right? The bodies of animals are quite amazing when you get down to the fine details. I could easily write a book, though that would take too much time.

These are just a few points to help everyone understand what happens with nutrient absorption, nutrition alteration, and a tiny bit about how the fluids can fluctuate.

Nutrition is key to all animals for good health. We have to provide them with what they need. Then we can enjoy their amazing beauty, silly quirks, and interesting lifestyles .

Sorry this was so long. I thought I'd break it down a bit for those of you who don't have a medical background so you can understand the "why" behind providing them with supplements.

Heather

[CJ PELCHER]

[QUOTE=Heatheranne;170953]The goal is a balanced diet with balanced supplementation.

Phosphorus is also needed for healthy bones, which is why we give a multivitamin supplement once a week. Remembering though that phosphorus can have an inverse absorption to calcium, which in general can mean that when calcium levels are high, phosphorus levels can lower. Same in reverse, when phosphorus is high, calcium can be low. This is also why we do not use calcium and phosphorus supplements on the same day. Absorption may be altered. We must be carful with the balance.

Ok between you and Lynn.... i feel like i just went through ADVANCED BIOLOGY again... hahah
But that doesnt explain why they make it WITHOUT D3

[Sunshine]

I am definitely not an expert, but I will guess it's for reptiles who already get D3 from their lighting?