whites tree frog questions

[ReptileMom]

I have 2 whites tree frogs i got from the last reptile show, both are healthy as far as i can tell but they dont move as much as i think they should. one sits in the water bowl all the time and the other sits in the same spot. the water bowl is big enough that they could both get in if they wanted to. i mist the cage at least once a day. there is eco earth as substrate. it stays warm in my room because i also have snakes...they are in a large critter keeper temporarily until i can get to my tanks in storage. i've only seen them eat once or twice since i got them almost 3 weeks ago..do they have a hibernation period or something?

[kueluck]

If you would answer the questions below it will help out a lot. There are several people here that care for the WTF that will be able to help out with your problems. Also pictures are worth a thousand words, so if you can post some of the habitat and of the frog it would be great.


1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
16. How long have you owned him/her
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

[ReptileMom]

wow i really thought i had answered this...ok size of enclosure is as of this moment a large plastic critter keeper...not sure of measurements. hope to have some help this weekend so i can get my tank out of storage..was supposed to have help but with my back problems its slow going...will prob be a 10 gal tank. 2 inhabitants both about the same size. not sure of age but i think the vendor said they were almost at the age that if they were male they would croak...so far havent heard anything. unsure of exact humidity level...but it gets misted at least once a day...i try to do it in the morning when i get up and at night before i go to bed. water is tap water for both drinking and misting. temperature unknown but the room stays warm for my other reptiles. substrate is eco earth..they have a fake plant in there and they dont pay it any attention..they are like ok and...main food source is either lobster roaches or crickets. both are always dusted with calcium powder at least once or twice a week. lighting right now is whatever is in the ceeling fan..i think one is uvb cuz my iguana likes to sit up on my shelf closest to my fan but the rest are the energy saving bulbs. unsure of last time they ate, i put bugs in there and unless they are burrowing or getting out of the top i am not seeing anything. as i am not sure what frog poop looks like idk if i've found any...i spot clean once a day so if i see anything in thhere that isnt bugs, frog or eco earth it comes out. unsure of how old exactly the frogs are or whether they are wild or captive bred..i asked but she wasnt sure...she was the guys wife or something and he had stepped away from the booth...i pet the frogs but other then that i dont handle them too much. the enclosure is in my room and im usually the only one in it other then ivy my free roaming iggy..he stays off that shelf tho....i spot check every day and rinse and refil the water bowl. anything else you need to know? pics to come soon

[kueluck]

Tap water MUST be treated or this will kill your frog. You can also use bottled water, but NO distilled for soaking, this can be used to spray the glass in the enclosure to keep water spots from forming. You want spring water, just make sure there is nothing added. Some times they will add sodium.

IMO you'll need a 20 to 30 vertical gallon enclosure for two WTF. They are quiet active at night and will use and need every bit of space you give them. I have 3 in the exo terra 18x18x24 but getting the 36x18x36 so they are more comfortable, these guys can get big.

Humidity and temps are very important to keep these guys healthy & happy. Temp range 75(nighttime)-85(daytime) with humidity 50-60%

Food source is good, but if these are still babies you want to dust w/calcium every other day & use a good multi-vitamin the other days. I also use a probiotic once a week & one day a week non dusted feeders. Also bowl feeding works great, this way the bugs can't hide from the frog, the frog won't ingest substrate & it's easy to remove uneaten feeders. FYI turkish roaches don't climb like the lobster do.

Keep an eye out for poop. It should be dark brown and well formed, if not you should take a sample into your vet for testing.

You mentioned you got these at a show in SC. I went to the Columbia ReptiCon and saw several WTF there but the ones I saw did not look good, I hope you were able to purchase
some healthy ones.

I'm pretty new at WTF, but I've had other amphibians for 2 years so I hope some of the WTF experts chime in to help fill in the blanks.

This is a must read Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea

[ReptileMom]

i dont get the tap water thing, used it for years and never had a problem with it, even had a fully aquatic frog it in for years with no problem. `10 gal is what i have available atm. its either that or the 55 gal which i dont have space for...i do have a small exo terra, my large one is housing my rat snake.. they are not babies they are a good size...i havent gotten a chance to get pics yet but i will soon. lobsters are what i have and im not changing it..i got mine at the columbia repticon and they looked good to me.,

[kueluck]

Your tap water must not be treated by a city then. When people say "tap water" first thing that comes to mind is chlorine, chlorides, fluorides and all the other chemicals they put it. I also suggested the turish because I've done the lobsters & they freak me out.

i dont get the tap water thing, used it for years and never had a problem with it, even had a fully aquatic frog it in for years with no problem. `10 gal is what i have available atm. its either that or the 55 gal which i dont have space for...i do have a small exo terra, my large one is housing my rat snake.. they are not babies they are a good size...i havent gotten a chance to get pics yet but i will soon. lobsters are what i have and im not changing it..i got mine at the columbia repticon and they looked good to me.,

[ReptileMom]

idl if its treated or not. i live in the city...lobsters are easier to get for me and seem to last longer

[Bolisnide]

Oy!
Okay, ReptileMom.... I'm absolutely not trying to be rude, but you MUST treat your water with a de-chlorinator/water conditioner. I really don't care if you've had success in the past or not. It is so important and if you don't treat your water, you're only asking for problems down the road.
All water, unless it is bottled 100% spring water (and that's not even a guarantee), will most likely have either chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals, or any combination. Get a water de-chlorinator that also neutralizes heavy metals.
As far as your original post,
these frogs will not have ahibernation period if you keep yoiur temps and humidity right on, please follow what Gail said and get a hygrometer and thermometer - so important!
Have a consistant day/night cycle with, they need the routine.
the frogs are nocturnal, you will nto see them be active with the lights on.
dust your feeders as Gail advised, and the glass bowl feeding method is a great way to monitor food intake (just search the forum for advice).
I would also advise switching out your substrate to paper towels, un-bleached. this will allow you to see and monitor fecals. This is very important in the beginning to ensure the frogs are healthy. If the stool is runny, as gail said, get a sample to a vet.
You should also really try to get the little guys into a larger enclosure, the bigger the better. For two frogs, I would advise atleast a 18x18x24. For now, if you turn your 10 gallon on it's end, that will suffice. This will give the frogs more height.

[ReptileMom]

cant turn the tank up like that with my iggy free roaming, had one like that and he knocked it off and killed a small lizard i was keeping...broke the tank etc. i can try to get to the smaller exo tera, not sure on size but i have the thing that measures the temp and humidity. i have a 3 day weekend coming up so i will hopefully be able to take care of it...as for the water treatment, it will have to wait. im flat @ss broke atm and dont get paid til wed...may have some samples of water treatment somewhere. i didnt take your statement as rude, surprisingly..normally on boards like this i get paranoid and take things the wrong way and end up having everyone mad at me...usually its cuz someone is trying to tell me they know more then i do about something that i know i know about...if that makes sense..i am not that experienced with frogs but i am learning. found a poop this morning and it was a firm poop so were good there. day and night is pretty consistant. i turn my light on the morning and off at night and its generally the same time every day unless i get to sleep in late...

[Bolisnide]

Hi,
I'm sorry for my late reply!
I'm glad you didn't take offense .
Well, you certailny don't want a broken enclosure, so if standing your 10 gallon on end won't work, then it won't work.
White's like height. They often will only come down to the bottom of the tank to soak and hunt. So keep that in mind when setting up a permanent home.
Until you can get the water treatment, you can sit your water out in buckets or bottles, with the lids off for at least 24 hours, this will help eliminate chlorine, but it will not eliminate chloramine or heavy metals. But I guess it's better than nothing, often stale water is better than fresh from the tap. Alternatively, you could purchase 100% spring water, but as you're short on funds at the moment, it's not that economical. But... like I said, water conditioner/de-chlorinator really is not an optional item for the health of these frogs. Water is life, and the water must not contain chlorine, chloramine, or high levels of heavy metals. Water conditioner is not that expensive, and typically lasts many months.
Glad to hear you found a solid poop, that is an excellent sign of good health. Try and make the day/night cycle very consistant, and predictable. It allows the frogs to feel more comfortable and safe through knowing what to expect. Also feed at the same time very night, when lights are out. This helps the frogs to trust their new environment, and you.
Also, I didn't mention this before, but your frogs are still settling in, even after 3 weeks in your home. It's very important not to handle or pet them at all. I only touch my whites periodically, and only to check for infection or skin problems. Typically I recomend not handling at all, and especially while their settling in.
Also, you could cover 3 sides of their enclosure to aid in them feeling safe as well.

And just on aside, as I'm sure other new white's tree owners will read this thread, and again please don't take offense because I know it's not your fault, but:
It's very important to do your research and set up an enclosure (and regulating temp and humidity) *prior* to bringing home any new frogs.
It is important for their health and safety, and it helps you in knowing what to expect.

[ReptileMom]

i did some research before i got them, i apparently didnt do enough. idk where i could put the water to stand...at least not in an open container...we have small children who dont listen and dont know when to leave something that isnt theirs alone...cant put it in my room cuz the iguana would drink or knock it over...didnt get to get the tank out of storage this weekend. will try to do it monday or tuesday at the latest...did get some stuff cleared out by myself. thier feeding schedule is generally at night when i come to bed. im gonna try to find something i can put them in so i can feed them. that way the bugs cant get away and they can find them.

[deranged chipmunk]

white's are not an "active" frog per se. sure, they will move around a bit, but they are mostly nocturnal. my white's (i have 5) don't move around until a few hours after lights out. as far as your tap water, are you in a large city? because a lot of smaller cities use well water for tap, so you wouldn't need to treat it. but if you are in a larger city, i would google the water quality to find out if they use chlorine or not.

a critter cage is too small for them, no matter the size. they also need climbing room. a couple of small, treated branches or a couple small pvc tubes cut to size would be sufficient. lobster roaches are fine for feeding as long as they are appropriate sized nymphs. the same goes for crickets. an as stated before, they need a month or more to get acclimated. they may need even more time since they are in a small enclosure and that creates a lot of stress in them. being a reptile keeper, i am sure you know how much stress affects them.

[Bolisnide]

white's are not an "active" frog per se. sure, they will move around a bit, but they are mostly nocturnal. my white's (i have 5) don't move around until a few hours after lights out. as far as your tap water, are you in a large city? because a lot of smaller cities use well water for tap, so you wouldn't need to treat it. but if you are in a larger city, i would google the water quality to find out if they use chlorine or not.

a critter cage is too small for them, no matter the size. they also need climbing room. a couple of small, treated branches or a couple small pvc tubes cut to size would be sufficient. lobster roaches are fine for feeding as long as they are appropriate sized nymphs. the same goes for crickets. an as stated before, they need a month or more to get acclimated. they may need even more time since they are in a small enclosure and that creates a lot of stress in them. being a reptile keeper, i am sure you know how much stress affects them.

Hi Bill,
Nice avatar .
Even if it is well water, without chlorine, it should still be treated (im my experience, I also have well water).

[Sunshine]

Hi Bill,
Nice avatar .
Even if it is well water, without chlorine, it should still be treated (im my experience, I also have well water).

That's what I heard too. Because of the large amount of heavy metals in well water. Not an expert though, but it couldn't hurt to treat the water anyways i suppose.

[deranged chipmunk]

I have heard varying degrees on this. some on then left coast say yes, some non the east say no. I think it all depends on the local water table. and all the dechlorinator in the world won't remove heavy metals.

I only use dechlorinator with my frog tanks. my fish tanks just get filled right from the tap. we don't add chloramines to the water supply here. and with as much circulation that I run in my tanks, the chlorine off gases pretty quickly.

[Sunshine]

I thought it did remove heavy metals. EDIT: My stress coat says it detoxifies heavy metals.

[ReptileMom]

while looking thru my supplies i did find a few samples of water treatment so im using that..one little pack is supposed to treat 8 gallons or something..as i stated before, the critter keeper is temporary. and im in a small town

[GrifTheGreat]

I've been asked to look at this thread to determine what water sources need to be treated.

Tap water- Always must be treated to remove chlorine and chloromines as well as heavy metals

Natural bottled Spring Water- Should be treated just to be safe. Just because they claim that it doesn't contain chlorine doesn't mean that it is 100% chlorine free.

Distilled water- does not need to be treated. It contains nothing but 100% water, but do to this it must only be used for misting or in fog machines because it lack all mineral and slat content needed by the body to oroperly hydrate and if used for soaking it can actually leach vitamins, nutrients, minerals, and electrolytes out of the frog.

R/O water- is the same as distilled just collected with a different process.

Well water- Must be treated. The reason for this is because all well water comes from the runoff that travels through the ground. This can collect many things that can be harmful to a frog. Well water can be quite hard due to large mineral content, but what is actually bad for the frog is the heavy metal content. Well water should be tested before use for your frogs. Many a I've seen many cases where someone was using well water and their frog has become ill. You never know what could be in your well water. Better safe than sorry and most dechlorinating agents remove heavy metals as well.

Please note that a Brita Filter does not remove everything from the water. It may remove the strong chlorine taste, but that deosn't mean it is 100% chlorine free. Boiling and setting out water for 48 hours will remove chlorine through evaporation, but will not remove heavy metals or chloromines thus making these forms useless in most cases.

I hope this helps some.

[Bolisnide]

Thank you, Griff.. This does help
ReptileMom, I'm so glad you found some water treatment to hold you over for a while
Good luck with your frogs, they are fascinating little creatures!

[deranged chipmunk]

While grif's info is accurate (always is), it should be noted however, that not all dechlorinators contain chelates that bind heavy metals. So reading the labels is crucial if using well water. I do apologize for giving incorrect info. Been a very stressful weekend