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Thread: MBD in a Green frog?

  1. #1
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Unhappy MBD in a Green frog?

    Unfortunately, I fear my Green frog, Bumpy Digtoad, has MBD or a vitamin deficiency. Here's a Trouble in the Enclosure :

    1. Size of enclosure? - 20 Gallon

    2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences? - Only Bumpy

    3. Humidity? - I mist the tank every few days

    4. Temperature? - 18-23 celsius

    5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish? - Conditioned tap water

    6. Materials used for substrate? - Small Smooth stones

    7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. - How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv? - Small Smooth stones (boiled), driftwood (thoroughly washed), fake plants

    8. Main food source? - Crickets

    9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often?) - Calcium mix dusted crickets every 2 weeks

    10. Lighting? - Day/night schedule

    11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure?

    12. When is the last time he/she ate? - Last night

    13. Have you found poop lately? - Yes

    14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)

    15. How old is the frog? - Unknown, presumed juvenile due to size

    16. How long have you owned him/her? - 8 months

    17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred? - Wild Caught

    18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats? - Crickets, 5-8 daily

    19. How often the frog is handled? - Only when changing enclosure (very rarely)

    20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area? - Low

    21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) 25-50% water changes every 1-3 days

    Earlier on this evening, I was watching Bumpy hunt, as I do every night. I was checking her sides and belly whilst looking through the glass underwater, when I noticed both of her middle toes twitching. At first, I thought it'd stop, but even when I took out the crickets, it didn't. I have heard that in some frogs this is normal, but also that it is a sign of MBD or a vitamin deficiency.

    It is very plausible that it is MBD/Deficiency because I only dusted her crickets every 2 weeks and I've been unable to to get her to eat other food items, even earthworms, which has concerned me for a long time.

    I'm pretty certain she has MBD or a deficiency of some sort, but she's still hunting crickets. Even so, what should I do? Should I begin constantly feeding her crickets with calcium mix, or should I set up a hospital tank?
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

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  3. #2
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    I forgot to mention:To make matters worse, Bumpy is an extremely skittish frog. In the whole 8 months I've kept her, I've only ever seen her eat about 6 times. I usually have to place the crickets in her tank, and just check the next morning. another problem is that her tank is almost fully water other than a piece of driftwood, a partially submerged ledge where her clay cave is, and a small upcropping of stones. She does have one lilypad in her tank with water reeds as well.I'm thinking of moving her to a hospital tank to make this easier. I am picking up a multivitamin mix tommorow, and a fresh calcium mix.
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  4. #3
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    I'm going to pick up the vitamin and calcium supplements today, and I've directed the UVB lamp onto her tank. I recently have used up all my spare tanks, so I'm probably going to have to either quickly buy a new one or place Bumpy in a container.


    I would REALLY appreciate it if someone could at least give me a tip on how to treat MBD. I'm a bit disappointed that no one has even offered their opinion yet.

    As for Bumpy, she's fast at evading me and swimming, but she won't hop at all.
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  5. #4
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    Hi Caspian,
    Is Bumpy an american green tree frog -Hylidae cinerea ?
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
    https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs

  6. #5
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    No, Bumpy is a Green frog (Rana Clamitans). Basically, a smaller version of the American Bullfrog (Rana Catesbiana)

    She's in her hospital tank right now, with moist paper towels for substrate, and a water dish. Unfortunately, I had to use my partially cracked 5 gallon tank, but it is no danger to her, and she cannot break the glass.

    I also just picked up an Exo Terra Calcium + D3 powder, and a Exo Terra Multi-Vitamin. I'm probably going to feed her in a schedule of: 5 crickets per night, each night dusted with the vitamin D3/Calcium, every 5 days Multi-Vitamin instead of the Calcium. Do you think this is a good schedule?

    Also, her feet are still twitching, she's not hopping, but she's crawling around and swimming well in her water bowl. She definitely knows I'm there, and she's hiding, so she's obviously still got a lot of strength in her. I'm just hoping that she'll eat tonight. If she doesn't, I may be forced to force-feed her, which I am prepared to do.
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  7. #6
    Super Moderator flybyferns's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    I think that's a good feeding schedule.
    However I am not experienced with bullfrogs, Caspian. Sorry
    If she has been eating , why would tonight be any different?
    I think Heath has a bull frog.- I'll give her a buzz.

    Read and review a bunch of good care sheets and fine tune her care
    Current Collection
    Dendrobates leucomelas - standard morph
    Dendrobates auratus “Costa Rican Green Black"
    Dendrobates auratus "Pena Blanca"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “New River”
    Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini"
    Dendrobates tinctorius “Powder Blue"
    Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt"

    Phyllobates terribilis “Mint”
    Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"
    Phyllobates bicolor "Uraba"

    Oophaga pumilio "Black Jeans"
    Oophaga pumilio "Isla Popa"
    Oophaga pumilio "Bastimentos"
    Oophaga pumilio “Mimbitimbi”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Colubre"
    Oophaga pumilio "Red Frog Beach”
    Oophaga pumilio "Rio Branco"
    Oophaga pumilio “Valle del Rey”
    Oophaga pumilio "BriBri"
    Oophaga pumilio "El Dorado"
    Oophaga pumilio "Cristobal"
    Oophaga pumilio "Rambala"

    Oophaga “Vicentei” (blue)

    Oophaga sylvatica "Paru"
    Oophaga sylvatica "Pata Blanca"
    Oophaga histrionica “Redhead”
    Oophaga histrionica "Blue"
    Oophaga lehmanni "Red"
    Oophaga histrionica "Tado"

    Ranitomeya variabilis "Southern"
    Ranitomeya imitator "Varadero"
    Ranitomeya sirensis "Lower Ucayali"
    Ranitomeya vanzolinii

    http://www.fernsfrogs.com
    https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs

  8. #7
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    Is there any way you can use a bowl to feed? It will allow you to know how much he is eating each day. It will also help to control the calcium/vita D supplement.

    Do you have a photo of his home?

    Lightly dust his food with the calcium/vita D3 daily until the symptoms resolve, then switch to every other day. I would also use a multivitamin supplement one day a week, not on the same day as the ca/D. Absorption is altered when using them on the same day.

    If you can, I would recommend picking up some liquid calcium supplement to do a soak. That way if he does not eat for a few days you'll know he is getting the calcium.

    I just sent this to another member here. It helps to understand the "why" in using the supplements .

    Tetany is a group of symptoms exhibited when one has low blood calcium levels. Symptoms and effects can include numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, lack of coordination with waking and hopping due to lack of the ability to contract muscles, seizures, weak or brittle bones, paralysis, and can lead to MBD. Lack of calcium can have effects on bones and muscle. It can even effect the functions of swallowing and bowel motility, due to the limited contractility.

    Vitamin D3 is necessary for proper absorption of calcium. In nature vitamin D3 is absorbed from the UVB light emitted from sunlight. In captivity it is necessary for us to provide the vitamin D3 through supplementation.

    Calcium in nature is ingested by the foods in which frogs eat, indirectly. The insects that they eat feed on leafy green plants which provide the calcium. It can also leach into some water sources from calcium rich rocks.

    Sorry it took me so long to see your post. If ever you don't get a quick reply you could try sending us a PM. There are many posts daily to scroll through. Unfortunately they don't post in order of priority. We'll find them quicker if you give us a "hey, I need help" .
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  9. #8
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    Lynn, you read my mind . Thanks!
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  10. #9
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    Lynn,

    Don't apologize, it's fine.

    Well, she may be scared by the sudden move from her normal tank to the hospital one, but yeah, she'll most likely be eating away tonight.

    Alright, I'll go message her.

    Yeah, I've been so busy with my Chorus frogs and Salamanders, that I've not been paying as much attention to my other frogs, something I will definitely correct. Also, Bumpy's setup needed fine tuning. I'm definitely going to add a larger land area so it's easier for her to catch crickets.

    Also, I've directed the UVB lamp towards her tank, so that might help.

    Thanks this is the first time any of my frogs have been sick, so I'm really nervous. But I'm willing to bet Bumpy will pull through. From what I've researched about MBD, I'm thinking that Bumpy's case is only in the early stages.
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  11. #10
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    Wow, you type fast Heather!

    I'll put in a small bowl to place the crickets in, I've plenty lying around.

    I'll get a photo of the hospital tank in a few minutes, if the battery on my camera is full.

    I know exactly where some of the liquid calcium is, I'll pick it up ASAP

    I'd just done some research on Tetany. As for Bumpy, the only symptoms of tetany I can see are the twitching of her toes, and lack of hopping.

    I will definitely begin dusting her crickets more often, that's for sure. The same will go for Gnag's, though Gnag already has a pretty good diet of 1 earthworm every other day and 5-8 crickets per night.

    Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it Hopefully, Bumpy will pull through
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  12. #11
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    It's tough with bullfrogs since their food often gets wet and can rinse off. Those crickets are also pretty good at cleaning themselves off. However, they aren't the brightest bugs and tend to hop right in the water and drown.

    I feed my big boy on top of his cave. It sits in the water. It's only about an inch out of the water but works pretty well.
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  13. #12
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    You're welcome .
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  14. #13
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    On a quick note: Would the croaking of my Pacific Chorus frogs scare Bumpy? They croak loud, and constantly throughout the whole night, and the hospital tank is currently beside theirs, so should I move it farther away?

    Yeah, I usually place the crickets on the water reeds in Gnag's tank, and she'll just take a huge leap at them. For Bumpy's, I place them on the driftwood and water reeds, and she goes at them there.

    By the way, is it photo's of her original tank or the hospital tank that you want?

    And yeah, those crickets aren't the brightest little guys. I kept on having to scoop one out of the water and placing it on the water reeds, except every time I placed it on the water reeds, it'd run right off and fall in the water again!
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  15. #14
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    I think it may annoy her being so close. I'd move it to minimize and possible stress.

    Her normal tank.
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  16. #15
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    I've moved her away from the Chorus frogs, hopefully it'll help.

    I'm afraid to say Bumpy hasn't eaten at all. The crickets are still in the bowl. I'll check tomorrow, and if there's no sign of success, I'll buy some of the liquid calcium and give her a soak. How long should the soak be, by the way?

    Here's two older images of her tank, when she was first placed into it:

    Name:  48304d1361583672-green-frog-bullfrog-dusted-crickets-dscf2814.jpg
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Size:  92.6 KBName:  48307d1361583763-green-frog-bullfrog-dusted-crickets-dscf2821.jpg
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    Earlier on today I tore apart her 20 Gallon, and I'm going to begin to remake it so it's easier for her to catch crickets, and less easy for crickets to get the calcium dust off of them.

    I don't know whether I should try force feeding her or not.
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  17. #16
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    Have you done a water check or a water change lately? If the toxins are high they'll get lethargic and stop eating. Try a 50% water change. How often do you do water changes and what % of water? Bullies, when eating, produce a lot of waste. Way more than we can see. Have you ever seen them pee? My 5" bully can pee about a 1/4 at a time. That's a lot if waste (ammonia). Doing partial water changes each week will help. A biological filter will help even more. Do you know if your filter has a bio filter pad in it?

    Have you ever had fish tanks? Has anyone ever taught you about the nitrogen cycling in a live tank? If not, I can link some information for you.

    If you can get a water test kit or strips this will give you more information as to if this is the problem or not.

    How is the temp in there tank?

    Force feeding is stressful, but may be necessary. Lets try a soak...

    Pick up some plain, unflavored pedialyte and some reptaboost. Save the reptaboost for now. Give him a pedialyte bath. It's one part pedialyte to 10 parts dechlorinated water for 15 minutes. You can do the soak in a Critter keeper or tupperware with a lid with holes in it. Be sure to poke the holes in the lid from inside out so they are smooth so he doesn't get hurt. I very carefully use a awl or poker heated and I just poke holes right through the underside of the lid. If you do this, please be careful not to burn yourself. You can even set the container in his actual tank to help decrease stress, though you don't have to.

    If he is toxic, soaks will help pull out some of the toxins. The pedialyte will help replace lost electrolytes.

    Continue to offer food. Give him another day to see if he eats. Maybe he will feel better after the soak.

    Let me know how he does. Lets hope he eats.
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  18. #17
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    Afraid that I don't think Bumpy ate at all last night. Still, she's not looking overly skinny, but not fat, so I suppose she's just too scared to eat.

    The temperature usually stays pretty cool, never anything overly warm or overly cold. I'd say room temperature, though it does drop at night a bit.

    Oh, I know how much bio-waste they produce. However, Bumpy doesn't produce as much as Gnag.

    Would this product help her?:
    Exo-Terra Reptile Calcimize Calcium Water Conditioner -3.3oz PT 1971 | eBay
    Or this?:
    http://www.petland.ca/reptile/reptil...ectrodize.html

    Well, I usually do 25-50% water changes at least every 3 days, but I will admit I forgot to do one for 5 days, since I was so busy with my new PCF's.

    I've done a lot of research on the nitrite/nitrate and ammonia cycles, but I don't know how to test the water.

    Where would I buy the reptaboost? I can try to get the pedialyte today, but I'm not sure about the reptaboost. Man, reptaboost is so elusive. I've been trying to find a place where they sell it, and I haven't for a LONG time now. I think I'm going to get some of that Exo-Terra Electrodize, since I have no idea where to buy either Reptaboost or pedialyte. It does say "To ensure sufficient vitamin and mineral intake, Exo Terra has developed a line of liquid supplements that can be easily added to the drinking water of reptiles and amphibians." and "Exo Terra Electrodize Liquid Electrolyte & Vitamin D3 Supplement helps restore and maintain electrolyte levels; prevents or reverses metabolic bone disease; strengthens the immune system; and stimulates appetite, activity and normal behaviour."
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  19. #18
    100+ Post Member Gnag the nameless's Avatar
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    Default Re: MBD in a Green frog?

    Nevermind on my earlier conclusion. I'll try and get the pedialyte, as you suggested, and hopefully, I'll be able to find some repti boost. If I don't, I'll get the Exo Terra Electrodize.
    My Amphibians:
    1.0.0 Rana Catesbiana (Bumpy Digtoad )
    1.0.0 Pseudacris Regilla (Levi )
    1.1.0 Ambystoma Macrodactylum (Urtham and Gargan )
    2.2.0 Bombina Orientalis ( Rosa, Sasha, Aleksis, and Dimitri )

    Rest in Peace, Gnag the Nameless, Chrome, and Thermidor

  20. #19
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    The electrolyte replacement would be great.

    Reptaboost is sold at any pet store in the retile section.

    Pedialyte is sold in any grocery store or department store like Walmart or Kmart. You can find in the baby section of the store or in the pharmacy area. Though if you use the electrolyze that you listed, you might not need pedialyte. I'd have to read the ingredients to be sure.

    That liquid calcium looks fine. Check to see if the electrolyze has calcium in it also. I bet it does.
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

  21. #20
    Super Moderator Heatheranne's Avatar
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    Default MBD in a Green frog?

    Yes, this is perfect.

    http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/electrolyte.php


    Image by exoterra.com
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203589094112277&id=1363241107&set =a.1434844115446.2055312.1363241107&source=11&ref= bookmark

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