MBD in a Green frog?

[Gnag the nameless]

Unfortunately, I fear my Green frog, Bumpy Digtoad, has MBD or a vitamin deficiency. Here's a Trouble in the Enclosure :

1. Size of enclosure? - 20 Gallon

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences? - Only Bumpy

3. Humidity? - I mist the tank every few days

4. Temperature? - 18-23 celsius

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish? - Conditioned tap water

6. Materials used for substrate? - Small Smooth stones

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. - How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv? - Small Smooth stones (boiled), driftwood (thoroughly washed), fake plants

8. Main food source? - Crickets

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often?) - Calcium mix dusted crickets every 2 weeks

10. Lighting? - Day/night schedule

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure?

12. When is the last time he/she ate? - Last night

13. Have you found poop lately? - Yes

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)

15. How old is the frog? - Unknown, presumed juvenile due to size

16. How long have you owned him/her? - 8 months

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred? - Wild Caught

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats? - Crickets, 5-8 daily

19. How often the frog is handled? - Only when changing enclosure (very rarely)

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area? - Low

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) 25-50% water changes every 1-3 days

Earlier on this evening, I was watching Bumpy hunt, as I do every night. I was checking her sides and belly whilst looking through the glass underwater, when I noticed both of her middle toes twitching. At first, I thought it'd stop, but even when I took out the crickets, it didn't. I have heard that in some frogs this is normal, but also that it is a sign of MBD or a vitamin deficiency.

It is very plausible that it is MBD/Deficiency because I only dusted her crickets every 2 weeks and I've been unable to to get her to eat other food items, even earthworms, which has concerned me for a long time.

I'm pretty certain she has MBD or a deficiency of some sort, but she's still hunting crickets. Even so, what should I do? Should I begin constantly feeding her crickets with calcium mix, or should I set up a hospital tank?

[Gnag the nameless]

I forgot to mention:To make matters worse, Bumpy is an extremely skittish frog. In the whole 8 months I've kept her, I've only ever seen her eat about 6 times. I usually have to place the crickets in her tank, and just check the next morning. another problem is that her tank is almost fully water other than a piece of driftwood, a partially submerged ledge where her clay cave is, and a small upcropping of stones. She does have one lilypad in her tank with water reeds as well.I'm thinking of moving her to a hospital tank to make this easier. I am picking up a multivitamin mix tommorow, and a fresh calcium mix.

[Gnag the nameless]

I'm going to pick up the vitamin and calcium supplements today, and I've directed the UVB lamp onto her tank. I recently have used up all my spare tanks, so I'm probably going to have to either quickly buy a new one or place Bumpy in a container.


I would REALLY appreciate it if someone could at least give me a tip on how to treat MBD. I'm a bit disappointed that no one has even offered their opinion yet.

As for Bumpy, she's fast at evading me and swimming, but she won't hop at all.

[flybyferns]

Hi Caspian,
Is Bumpy an american green tree frog -Hylidae cinerea ?

[Gnag the nameless]

No, Bumpy is a Green frog (Rana Clamitans). Basically, a smaller version of the American Bullfrog (Rana Catesbiana)

She's in her hospital tank right now, with moist paper towels for substrate, and a water dish. Unfortunately, I had to use my partially cracked 5 gallon tank, but it is no danger to her, and she cannot break the glass.

I also just picked up an Exo Terra Calcium + D3 powder, and a Exo Terra Multi-Vitamin. I'm probably going to feed her in a schedule of: 5 crickets per night, each night dusted with the vitamin D3/Calcium, every 5 days Multi-Vitamin instead of the Calcium. Do you think this is a good schedule?

Also, her feet are still twitching, she's not hopping, but she's crawling around and swimming well in her water bowl. She definitely knows I'm there, and she's hiding, so she's obviously still got a lot of strength in her. I'm just hoping that she'll eat tonight. If she doesn't, I may be forced to force-feed her, which I am prepared to do.

[flybyferns]

I think that's a good feeding schedule.
However I am not experienced with bullfrogs, Caspian. Sorry
If she has been eating , why would tonight be any different?
I think Heath has a bull frog.- I'll give her a buzz.

Read and review a bunch of good care sheets and fine tune her care

[Heatheranne]

Is there any way you can use a bowl to feed? It will allow you to know how much he is eating each day. It will also help to control the calcium/vita D supplement.

Do you have a photo of his home?

Lightly dust his food with the calcium/vita D3 daily until the symptoms resolve, then switch to every other day. I would also use a multivitamin supplement one day a week, not on the same day as the ca/D. Absorption is altered when using them on the same day.

If you can, I would recommend picking up some liquid calcium supplement to do a soak. That way if he does not eat for a few days you'll know he is getting the calcium.

I just sent this to another member here. It helps to understand the "why" in using the supplements .

Tetany is a group of symptoms exhibited when one has low blood calcium levels. Symptoms and effects can include numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, lack of coordination with waking and hopping due to lack of the ability to contract muscles, seizures, weak or brittle bones, paralysis, and can lead to MBD. Lack of calcium can have effects on bones and muscle. It can even effect the functions of swallowing and bowel motility, due to the limited contractility.

Vitamin D3 is necessary for proper absorption of calcium. In nature vitamin D3 is absorbed from the UVB light emitted from sunlight. In captivity it is necessary for us to provide the vitamin D3 through supplementation.

Calcium in nature is ingested by the foods in which frogs eat, indirectly. The insects that they eat feed on leafy green plants which provide the calcium. It can also leach into some water sources from calcium rich rocks.

Sorry it took me so long to see your post. If ever you don't get a quick reply you could try sending us a PM. There are many posts daily to scroll through. Unfortunately they don't post in order of priority. We'll find them quicker if you give us a "hey, I need help" .

[Heatheranne]

Lynn, you read my mind . Thanks!

[Heatheranne]

It's tough with bullfrogs since their food often gets wet and can rinse off. Those crickets are also pretty good at cleaning themselves off. However, they aren't the brightest bugs and tend to hop right in the water and drown.

I feed my big boy on top of his cave. It sits in the water. It's only about an inch out of the water but works pretty well.

[Heatheranne]

You're welcome .

[Gnag the nameless]

On a quick note: Would the croaking of my Pacific Chorus frogs scare Bumpy? They croak loud, and constantly throughout the whole night, and the hospital tank is currently beside theirs, so should I move it farther away?

Yeah, I usually place the crickets on the water reeds in Gnag's tank, and she'll just take a huge leap at them. For Bumpy's, I place them on the driftwood and water reeds, and she goes at them there.

By the way, is it photo's of her original tank or the hospital tank that you want?

And yeah, those crickets aren't the brightest little guys. I kept on having to scoop one out of the water and placing it on the water reeds, except every time I placed it on the water reeds, it'd run right off and fall in the water again!

[Heatheranne]

I think it may annoy her being so close. I'd move it to minimize and possible stress.

Her normal tank.

[Gnag the nameless]

I've moved her away from the Chorus frogs, hopefully it'll help.

I'm afraid to say Bumpy hasn't eaten at all. The crickets are still in the bowl. I'll check tomorrow, and if there's no sign of success, I'll buy some of the liquid calcium and give her a soak. How long should the soak be, by the way?

Here's two older images of her tank, when she was first placed into it:


Earlier on today I tore apart her 20 Gallon, and I'm going to begin to remake it so it's easier for her to catch crickets, and less easy for crickets to get the calcium dust off of them.

I don't know whether I should try force feeding her or not.

[Heatheranne]

Have you done a water check or a water change lately? If the toxins are high they'll get lethargic and stop eating. Try a 50% water change. How often do you do water changes and what % of water? Bullies, when eating, produce a lot of waste. Way more than we can see. Have you ever seen them pee? My 5" bully can pee about a 1/4 at a time. That's a lot if waste (ammonia). Doing partial water changes each week will help. A biological filter will help even more. Do you know if your filter has a bio filter pad in it?

Have you ever had fish tanks? Has anyone ever taught you about the nitrogen cycling in a live tank? If not, I can link some information for you.

If you can get a water test kit or strips this will give you more information as to if this is the problem or not.

How is the temp in there tank?

Force feeding is stressful, but may be necessary. Lets try a soak...

Pick up some plain, unflavored pedialyte and some reptaboost. Save the reptaboost for now. Give him a pedialyte bath. It's one part pedialyte to 10 parts dechlorinated water for 15 minutes. You can do the soak in a Critter keeper or tupperware with a lid with holes in it. Be sure to poke the holes in the lid from inside out so they are smooth so he doesn't get hurt. I very carefully use a awl or poker heated and I just poke holes right through the underside of the lid. If you do this, please be careful not to burn yourself. You can even set the container in his actual tank to help decrease stress, though you don't have to.

If he is toxic, soaks will help pull out some of the toxins. The pedialyte will help replace lost electrolytes.

Continue to offer food. Give him another day to see if he eats. Maybe he will feel better after the soak.

Let me know how he does. Lets hope he eats.

[Gnag the nameless]

Afraid that I don't think Bumpy ate at all last night. Still, she's not looking overly skinny, but not fat, so I suppose she's just too scared to eat.

The temperature usually stays pretty cool, never anything overly warm or overly cold. I'd say room temperature, though it does drop at night a bit.

Oh, I know how much bio-waste they produce. However, Bumpy doesn't produce as much as Gnag.

Would this product help her?:
Exo-Terra Reptile Calcimize Calcium Water Conditioner -3.3oz PT 1971 | eBay
Or this?:
http://www.petland.ca/reptile/reptil...ectrodize.html

Well, I usually do 25-50% water changes at least every 3 days, but I will admit I forgot to do one for 5 days, since I was so busy with my new PCF's.

I've done a lot of research on the nitrite/nitrate and ammonia cycles, but I don't know how to test the water.

Where would I buy the reptaboost? I can try to get the pedialyte today, but I'm not sure about the reptaboost. Man, reptaboost is so elusive. I've been trying to find a place where they sell it, and I haven't for a LONG time now. I think I'm going to get some of that Exo-Terra Electrodize, since I have no idea where to buy either Reptaboost or pedialyte. It does say "To ensure sufficient vitamin and mineral intake, Exo Terra has developed a line of liquid supplements that can be easily added to the drinking water of reptiles and amphibians." and "Exo Terra Electrodize Liquid Electrolyte & Vitamin D3 Supplement helps restore and maintain electrolyte levels; prevents or reverses metabolic bone disease; strengthens the immune system; and stimulates appetite, activity and normal behaviour."

[Gnag the nameless]

Nevermind on my earlier conclusion. I'll try and get the pedialyte, as you suggested, and hopefully, I'll be able to find some repti boost. If I don't, I'll get the Exo Terra Electrodize.

[Heatheranne]

The electrolyte replacement would be great.

Reptaboost is sold at any pet store in the retile section.

Pedialyte is sold in any grocery store or department store like Walmart or Kmart. You can find in the baby section of the store or in the pharmacy area. Though if you use the electrolyze that you listed, you might not need pedialyte. I'd have to read the ingredients to be sure.

That liquid calcium looks fine. Check to see if the electrolyze has calcium in it also. I bet it does.

[Heatheranne]

Yes, this is perfect.

http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/electrolyte.php


Image by exoterra.com

[Gnag the nameless]

I couldn't find any reptaboost, so I got the Calcium water conditioner. If I'd known that the Electrolyte solution could've helped, I would've gotten it my bad. Here's what I got along with the pedialyte:
Exo-Terra Reptile Calcimize Calcium Water Conditioner -3.3oz PT 1971 | eBay

I can't find reptaboost in any petstore I've gone to, 2 Mr pets stores, Petland, petcetera, so I don't know if you can get it in Canada. I'll check the Pet Habitat and any other nearby pet stores as soon as I can.

Anyways, I'm gonna go give Bumpy her 15 minute soak of a solution, 1/10 of it made up of pedialyte, 9/10 of it made up of dechlorinated water, in a tupperware container with holes poked in from the inside of the lid. Hopefully, she'll perk up a bit. I'll let you know after the soak is done.

[Gnag the nameless]

Well, the 15 minute pedialyte bath is over, and currently Bumpy is sitting in her water bowl, and I'm going to leave her alone for the rest of the evening, except when I come in to feed my other amphibians, and of course, to go to sleep. I've placed 5 fresh, dusted crickets in a better dish, of which will be very hard for them to escape from, but easier for Bumpy to catch them from. This may sound grim, but I crushed one of each of the crickets hind legs so they can't hop out. Hopefully, Bumpy will eat some.