dubia roach + protein theory something every dubia breeder should know

[yoshimi]

Roach death #4 found this morning. Little lady nymph (not one of mine) upside-down under a dogpile of adults in an eggcrate. I take each death personally, and she was part of the group in there to grow up. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I did another baby sweep. They do better in their own bin or at least they get 1st crack at food. They're my feeders so that's important. And heated breeding bin always seems calmer afterwards, followed by a spurt of births. I'm sure the births would happen anyway, but I feel better moving the little ones out. I haven't lost any yet, except to herp suppers.

It's kind of funny that I'm obsessed with how they're doing and what they're eating, meanwhile Banjo's main food right now is calcium covered earthworms that eat dirt. A few reptivite roaches the other day. Haven't bought or fed off any crickets in so long, but they're hanging in there. I'm feeding them the same things as baby dubia and will continue to do so until they die off, probably. Can't knowingly starve them. Can't even bring myself to get rid of meal worm beetles, even tho I really don't want them around anymore. Would like to let them go outside, but right now that's the same as sticking them in my freezer to die. Say I did put beetles out in backyard once the weather realizes it's Spring not Winter, anyone know if that'd have a negative ecological effect? It's a large backyard, they'd have to go a long way to get near another house or even another property. Kind of hoping birds would eat them.

Someone suggested that overly crunchy foods could kill roaches by wearing down their mouth parts. This makes some sense to me. Sure they're good scavengers, but being kept and bred, and they don't have to be. I find the little bites they take out of carrots adorable. Cat and dog food is meant for cat and dog teeth that could tear you up. I've seen roach infestations where they'd moved into bags of dog food, but nobody there was hoping they'd live a long life. Just a thought.

I live mainly on vegetables, and cereal with soymilk (I think most dairy is gross). Very little protein and subsequently very little muscle. I take D3 2000 iu daily because I think sunshine is gross too (just kidding, but I burn), and have soft bones which resulted in a buckle fracture. Painful and silly. Banjo gets d3 with her calcium cuz I've taken away her sunlight, and there's nothing she can do about it. No matter what I feed her bugs, she'll get supplements, because I'm too worried about what might happen if she didn't. No way I could ever recreate what she might eat outside on a summer night. Totally agree that cricket/insect diets aren't worth it, but I still keep a jar of orange cricket cubes in my fridge, just in case.

I'm curious what the wasp research is about. A piece of what was probably a hornets nest fell off the eave of front porch last summer and it was fascinating. Old and abandoned, but the thought of all the little bees in their little bee beds tickled me. I know wasps/hornets/bees are not all the same, but I've never been stung so I feel quite friendly towards them all. Skimmed many a drowning bee from swimming pool.

As far as roaches go, I'm interested in anything that might lower the body count.

[unkempt1]

Very interesting thread! I look forward to the findings!

Up to this point I've been satisfied with lurking, but now I have some questions: how about salty foods? Does this inhibit the overall long term health of a colony? What effect does it have on roach physiology? And are there any calcium-rich foods you shouldn't feed your colony, such as powdered milk or pet foods that contain high levels of calcium? I ask because I have read (and I admit from random people on forums) that calcium is bad because it can inhibit molting. That being said, I like to think that there are some items that are good or bad for them, calcium notwithstanding.

[yoshimi]

So after a baby sweep yesterday, several hours later there was a new litter, and other than removing the dry food/water crystal bowl for cleaning, let them be. This morning, more brand new babies and for the 1st time ever, I caught them in the act. Not what I expected so I wasn't totally sure what I was seeing til I looked it up. The gross part was that when male roach finished and left, female roach moved too and under her were more fresh nymphs. My goodness. Roaches be crazy.

[JeffreH]

Crystal - I've been doing phylogenetic work on the superfamily Chalcidoidea; which comprise of very small species of wasp that are often overlooked. The few species I work with are parasitoids of the gall-midge fly, Asteromyia carbonifera, which attack goldenrods and other Asters. Much like cockroaches, the general public has negative feelings toward wasps and hymenopterans in general despite very influential ecological roles. The majority of Chalcids in particular are parasitoids and can have immense implications as a means of biological controls; in the species I've worked with we often seen parasitism rates of upwards to 30-50%. Wasps and other parasitoids we work with (Tachinids) are responsible for keeping populations of many pest species down, and they often have a particular affinity for caterpillars. Feel free to PM me if you want additional info, I don't want to stray away from the main topic of the thread ; )

Augie - I've done a little experimenting with calcium additives in mealworms (T. molitor). Unfortunately, the results of my mini-project were un-conclusive to say the least and I had little desire to replicate it. I attempted to add X mass of calcium citrate to small cultures of treatment groups in an otherwise controlled environment. Temperature and humidity constant, dry food was weighed, moisture was provided in a non-nutritional/compromising fashion, colony mass and individual larvae mass were recorded daily and notes were taken on the molting and ability to properly eclose from pupae. Unfortunately, my colonies were tampered with... but over the course of about 4 weeks I noted no obvious death toll or inability to molt from one instar to the next. With that being said, I have personally observed mass die-offs and what would appear to be difficulty with molting in crickets when fed an excessively high calcium diet... but its difficult to attribute this to just calcium. Crickets are pretty fragile in the scope of things; it could just have easily been disease or some other factor. For all we know, it may even be some other nutrient all-together. Vitamin D3 for example is frequently associated with calcium supplements we use for herps and would therefore be a likely candidate for use in gutloading.

On the note of feeding hard foods - I used to grind up my hard, dry food such as dog and cat kibble in order to make it easier for the roaches to feed, but I've completely stopped doing this over the last couple of years and can say with confidence that colonies will still thrive even when whole pieces are offered. I'll be honest in that I'm ignorant in my understanding of how specifically cockroaches feed; but I'd wager they utilize some type of digestive enzyme activity in their mouths during feeding to make breaking down larger and drier food bits easier. Just speculating, but I've never had a problem with mine finishing off their food and having no noticeable side effects on their ability to continue to feed and thrive.

Just a little food for thought: cockroaches will probably find the quality of food we offer to be far richer than much of what they would otherwise encounter in nature. I wouldn't expect to see any significant difference in a roaches ability to survive or the number of offspring produced purely by feeding something like apples instead of bananas. Insects don't often store large amounts of nutrients and as a result they likely excrete most of the goodies they obtain by foraging (hence why gutloading in a 36-48hr window is so essential). There is often a difference in providing what is best for the feeder insect vs. providing what is best for the pet reptile or amphibian. Cockroaches are a little easier because they are generalists and can thrive feeding on a wide variety of food items. Try feeding silkworms who only feed on mulberry a special gutload and they will perish rapidly; or at the minimum have implications on their ability to reach adulthood or reproduce.

I think examining protein vs. relative non-protein should be interesting, but I don't expect to see anything significant coming from feeding one particular food item in a category compared to another in the same category (i.e. feeding kale instead of spinach). These foods are so rich compared to forest-floor detritus that roaches are likely exposed to in nature that we are probably already seeing pretty close to maximum brood sizes and adult sizes in most of our captive environments, even if there is some differences between how each of us care for them. Sort of speculating again, but considering much of the neotropical forest is comprised very extensively of plants who with low palatability and defensive compounds I'd wager the garden goodies we offer are like eating at a 5-Star restaurant with each meal.

[demon amphibians]

I am totally on board with you Jeff. The main statement i am trying to make is that you really dont have to search far and wide to get your feeders exactly what they need. Just like you said Kale and spinach are far superior to what they can find on the forest floor. I mean just look back at some threads that people post. They are asking where to find things such as calcium and protein when they can find something sufficient in something that everyone believes is low in nutrition such as lettuce. All i am doing is trying to rule out the need of vitamins and nutrition outside of things you can find in your fridge. I mean think about it carrots are a super food along with spinach, broccoli squash and Kale(which is the king of veggies there is nothing out there that we can buy veggie wise that surpasses kale in nutrition.) We already giving them everything they need and more. So this hunt for answers of things we should add to our bins to improve our feeders growth and reproduction are much simpler then most may think.

I also agree with you on the protein experiment. I don't expect to see any differences in my research. But that is exactly what i am looking for. Also death rate based off that info you sent me. And i am going to take your advice and instead of two i will do six, 3 with nothing but veggies and 3 with a higher protein diet such as dog food and other high protein foods. I will keep them all together in a bin that i already have a constant temp and humidity.

Now i also agree that you can not compare a roaches digestive system to ours or even another decomposing insect the same size as a roach. I just used that as an example to help other readers to help them better understand the points i am trying to make. If people have something to compare then what i am saying starts to make more sense then if i were to give a scientific analysis. And also about the grass nutrition yes you are also right about that, cows don't only eat grass they eat a large array of different foods and yes they are picky. But something as simple as grass can provide more nutrion then most people are lead to believe especially if we are talking about a very small insect that may require a fraction in the thousandths of what we need. For anyone else who is reading this yes veggie items in your fridge have much more nutritional value then grass.

I know for a fact that oranges improve breeding significantly and i will be honest i have no idea why. Moister is a point that has been brought up and i think we all can agree that is a factor but i do know that it isn't the only thing. It may be calcium, it may be vitamins contained in oranges. If anyone does have an idea please feel free to share. I have also read that grapefruit also has the same effect. This i have not tried so i would have no idea. I have tried lemons and limes thinking it may be citric acid or something else that an acidic fruit may share. But even if there is nothing else in the bins to eat they barely even take a nibble at them.

[demon amphibians]

Now also where i would like more research is in the department of space. How much space do they really need to reproduce at top performance. Like i have mentioned before i am producing between 5000 to 7000 a month when with as many as i have should be seeing closer to 18000 a month. I do have large bins but i just have so many I feel like even if i had a 100 gal bin it would still be filled out. (that is a little less then 3 times the size of my largest bin. I do have 4 bins 1 with my mid sized nymphs when they become adults i move all the females to 2 separate bins of 25 gal along with the appropriate amount of new males.( Each bin has about 650 females a peace with the males of 1/3 the amount). The rest of the males go to a feeder and to sell tank were i keep out of my roach colony set up. these guys i will either feed or sell to a pet store. which ever comes first. Then i have a smaller bin about 10 gal were i send all the babies until they have reached about there 3rd molt. I do this so they have a better opportunity to get a jump start on life and have no food competition from the larger roaches as well as reduce the small possibility of cannibalism. After a majority of them have reached a better size i transfer them to the 36 gal bin for my midsized nymphs. Now what Jeff stated is true they all grow at different rates i have some babies of the same age as others that are almost 5 times larger. So i am just going off of a majority before i do the transfer. I think it is funny how i have larger nymphs in my breeder tank that are just over a week old that are larger then some that are in my midsized nymph bin that were borne in early February.
So if anyone can elaborate on the appropriate amount of space required please give feed back.

[JeffreH]

I know for a fact that oranges improve breeding significantly and i will be honest i have no idea why. Moister is a point that has been brought up and i think we all can agree that is a factor but i do know that it isn't the only thing. It may be calcium, it may be vitamins contained in oranges. If anyone does have an idea please feel free to share. I have also read that grapefruit also has the same effect. This i have not tried so i would have no idea. I have tried lemons and limes thinking it may be citric acid or something else that an acidic fruit may share. But even if there is nothing else in the bins to eat they barely even take a nibble at them.

My current hypothesis is that it may be carotenoids; while moisture is certainly a significant contributor to palatability in cockroaches and their well-being, plenty of fruit products and the offering of water crystals can provide more than adequate moisture in the diet. Its a big factor, but I think there's definitely something else going on otherwise I'm not sure if we wouldn't see a difference in what we feed so long as moisture (water crystals) are always available.

Carotenoids are incredibly important to a number of physiological processes, and their uses are relatively unexplored. Oranges have some incredibly dense concentrations of carotenoids....something in the ballpark of 30 individual carotenoid pigments are found in valencia oranges and these pigments are known to manifest in the eyes of flies and other insects. This idea was brought up by my friend Jeremy Heath, who did his dissertation on carotenoids in the midge systems. He found that carotenoids were found in certain female glands and within the eggs of midge flies; and it wouldn't surprise me if this occurs in other insects as well. We are familiar with the more charismatic compounds like B-carotene that is so often found in orange-pigmented food items, but there are dozens of individual compounds that each hold the potential to drive some physiological benefit. Not just in terms of Vitamin A; carotenoids are attributed to human development and vision, photosynthetic processes, and antioxidant potential. Its very possible that cockroaches and other insects who are so finely tuned to detect food quality and individual odor molecules that I think its plausible that they may *know* about the benefits in high-carotenoid fruits and vegetables and may seek them out voluntarily, with benefits that increase their fitness.

In terms of space: This is probably going to be common sense to you so I apologize, I know you are an experienced roach keeper as well ; ) but - What kind of structures are you using in your bins to increase surface area? I'd assume egg flats, which are my personal favorite. You can squeeze a greater amount of roaches in a small area if you stack them vertically and pack them in the bin entirely - I offer food on the top surface in larger colonies using a flat piece of carboard or drop select items down into the cracks below so that smaller nymphs foraging in the frass and debris can more readily access some of the food. I personally use a rack system for my cockroaches, which allows me to squeeze more bins into a smaller area. The rack is heated with flexwatt, and each shelf can hold up to 3 - 20 gallon bins. I mostly distribute individuals among the bins when the populations begin looking a bit dense; and it seems to have the most success if you can cut colonies down to about 2/3 or 1/2 their size when splitting. This creates a ton of extra space in the bin; and I think the realization that space is available encourages additional reproduction because there is less crowding, easier access to food and ability to consume more of it in a sitting, etc.

[yoshimi]

I can't imagine a larger baby output than what I've seen this past month, in my micro-colony. But they're young roaches in the prime of their lives. My gut says over-crowding would be an issue too. I've seen it in rats, which are not roaches, but breeding happens for mostly the same reasons across the board. I'd imagine it wouldn't happen (as much) in a grossly over-crowded environment where babies wouldn't thrive, or would take away resources, add to the chaos, what have you. Particularly since roaches can abort.

Moving babies out works for me cuz they need to stay relatively small and get 1st crack at food. Also why grinding it up works for me. I've had oranges in breeding bin from the beginning, before they were mature enough to breed.

Gotta say tho, that some of the situations and numbers you guys describe sound nightmarish to me. My biggest fear in starting out was that it'd spin out of control. Opening a bin and seeing a pile of bugs stacked up would have me running screaming down the street. Even tho it's netting a profit, this isn't something I'm planning to continue forever. I'm not even properly planning for this to continue past the death of the adults I have now. When I catch a larger nymph during a baby sweep, I toss it back in with adults. Sometimes. Summer concerns me. I had great success in cold weather, cuz I could control how warm they were. A very hot and humid summer might speed everything up.
Ok, I'm scaring myself. Maybe I should invest in a better AC. Give them ice cubes and anti-depressants. Or take away their oranges. How great of a difference is there?

Also, local pet stores buy your roaches? I'm guessing you're not talking about the big chains. Which is too bad, since dubia really are great feeders, and SHOULD be more widely available.

[demon amphibians]

sorry I didnt reply to your question sooner Augie. For the sodium honestly i don't have an answer for you. I want to assume that it probably wont cause harm. I have feed saltine crackers to them and i don't know if they ate it or the slate was just dropped on the bottom of the bin. Sodium is very important to us and other animals but you really cant compare to an insect. You will be very surprised with how many foods out there naturally contain sodium. There is a lot of sodium in dog food. And they seem to eat it all the same. But if for instance they to require sodium it will be in a very very small amount. Much less then you will find in a bread product.

[demon amphibians]

So for the vegan roaches. I just cleaned my bins today after two weeks and I only found one death due to me setting a water dish on one and squishing it. This is a huge difference compared to the past couple times i cleaned where I found several unexplained deaths. This may mean nothing about the effects of high protein diets. But i will update you in two weeks when i clean again. Also i found my production a bit larger maybe 2,000 larger. But again this may only be because i added 113 new females to the breeding bins.
As for the experiments i haven't added the other additional containers as of yet but the two i do have there are no significant differences that i can tell but one thing i did notice is that they do prefer wet dog food over many veggies and fruits. Wet i mean i soak dry dog food in water and blend it with carrots cheerios and a few other ingredients.

what you mentioned about space jeff. I do have my bins packed with egg crates but I do think i can fit a few more in. I also use paper towel rolls and toilet paper rolls ( the card board part of course) to fill in the empty spaces.

over all my colony is doing a bit better it is kind of a pain only feeding veggies because they bring up the humidity levels drastically. But i can use extra humidity with my ceramic bulbs. The roaches seem to being handling it well.