ADF: Lower jaw issues.

[njnolan1]

Don't knock 2.5 gallon tanks just yet. You can easily keep some live plants, a snail and a dozen cherry shrimp in there. Or a single betta with a snail and live plants.

2 Dwarf frogs would be completely fine in a 2.5 gallon tank. Or even 3 Endler's (mine seem very happy). The problem I have is I have 3 frogs and 3 fish in the tank. I over did it.

I think the frogs are bored or it's just the light. They were fine for almost a year. I had them in a 2 gallon with no filter and they seemed very happy. Mating, eating and just chilling out. I've done many changes in the new tank and even the old one for months and I think they liked the changing around. I haven't changed anything in the tank in months. Maybe I should move things around a bit until I can upgrade to a 5 gallon.

[mpmistr]

Inverts like small shrimp have a small bio load, so they may do fine in a small tank like that.

Also keep in mind that ADF are a prey species, they often 'put on a good face' even when they are not doing terribly well. I think your frogs would be happier in a larger tank. Frogs (as just about every other animal) do not become bored.

I don't think a betta deserve to be kept in a 2.5 gallon either, they can survive but they will do much better in a larger tank, and live much longer.

Just how I feel though, how you keep them is up to you. I just dislike small tanks like that, I don't find them useful for 99% of the species you keep in aquariums.

[njnolan1]

Frogs (as just about every other animal) do not become bored.

I don't think a betta deserve to be kept in a 2.5 gallon either, they can survive but they will do much better in a larger tank, and live much longer.

I will have to respectfully disagree about these statements. Most animals will become "bored" if their instinctual needs aren't met. Obviously this will vary depending on the complexity of the animals psyche. If frogs did not become bored then why would they fair better in a larger tank if I'm keeping the water clean (there was a small spike after months of perfect water because of my over feeding)?

I think a 2.5 gallon tank is perfectly adequate for a betta as long as the water is kept clean. Not too difficult if there's no overfeeding and regular water changes are done. Live plants and places to hide I think are great too!

What they don't deserve is being kept in half gallon bowls or little cups at the pet store. That's just terrible.

But that's the thing about the pet keeping hobby. It's very opinionated as many animals are able to adapt to differing methods as long as their basic needs are met.

[mpmistr]

Well, larger aquariums are easier to maintain than smaller systems. You usually run the risk of bacterial infection, ammonia poisoning, disease, fungus, premature death when you go with the smaller tank. It seems to be a common theme and it's easily avoided by investing literally a few more dollars into your set up.

Considering the cost of a 10 gallon tank at Wal Mart is roughly 13 dollars I see no reason to get anything less than that, again, just my opinion.

[njnolan1]

Sure, but what are you going to do with an empty 10 gallon tank? You need a filter, a decent one is around 20 bucks or more, you'll want some lighting and a hood, that's another 20 bucks. What about decor, plants etc..? Another 20-40 dollars depending on what you get. So let's see, that's 13+20+20+20 = 73 bucks! Now, you can get a kit which most stores have but it's usually only a few bucks cheaper but you'll still be expected to get your own decor.

I checked out the price and it's like 50 bucks for a 5 gallon betta bow. I did find two okay looking 5 gallon kits (includes filter and hood/lights) on Walmart's website for under 30 bucks. They don't have them in store so I can't take a look at them in person but they do offer free at store pick up. Maybe I'll look into that. I just have to find a place to put it. I live with three other people and everyone has too much stuff so there's not a lot of room to work with...


I totally agree a 5-10 gallon is better for a betta and a much larger tank is better for a community tank. That being said, everything you stated is only a risk if the water's not clean. One betta that is fed sparingly (once a day, old food removed) will not create enough ammonia in a 2.5 gallon tank for lasting damage, especially if one has live plants and cycles the tank IMO.

[mpmistr]

Sure, but what are you going to do with an empty 10 gallon tank? You need a filter, a decent one is around 20 bucks or more, you'll want some lighting and a hood, that's another 20 bucks. What about decor, plants etc..? Another 20-40 dollars depending on what you get. So let's see, that's 13+20+20+20 = 73 bucks! Now, you can get a kit which most stores have but it's usually only a few bucks cheaper but you'll still be expected to get your own decor.

I don't remember ever saying the aquarium hobby was the cheapest hobby to get into, I know personally I have invested well over $1,000 dollars into it.

In fact now that I think about it my african clawed frogs cost me $1.65+tax each, a rather paltry sum compared to what I've spent to assure they live a long, healthy life.

That being said.. a 10 gallon tank for 13 dollars is vastly superior to 2.5 gallon 5 gallon and bowls. You're kind of high balling this stuff. Why not just get a 10 gallon from Wal Mart, get a CFL plant-grow bulb, an aluminum reflector from home depot, go down to a river or creek and collect some rocks and pick up some cheap plants at the LFS? You could easily do this set up for way less than 73 dollars. That being said, 73 dollars isn't a lot of money regardless especially compared to say a cat or dog.. their food, toys, vet bills, ect.

I checked out the price and it's like 50 bucks for a 5 gallon betta bow. I did find two okay looking 5 gallon kits (includes filter and hood/lights) on Walmart's website for under 30 bucks. They don't have them in store so I can't take a look at them in person but they do offer free at store pick up. Maybe I'll look into that. I just have to find a place to put it. I live with three other people and everyone has too much stuff so there's not a lot of room to work with...

Seems over priced, PetCo runs specials on tanks for 1 dollar a gallon up to 40 gallons. There is a saying I live by, a poor person can afford only the best. Why not just invest in something that will last rather than buy these gimmicks?

I totally agree a 5-10 gallon is better for a betta and a much larger tank is better for a community tank. That being said, everything you stated is only a risk if the water's not clean. One betta that is fed sparingly (once a day, old food removed) will not create enough ammonia in a 2.5 gallon tank for lasting damage, especially if one has live plants and cycles the tank IMO.

I don't think it will reach it's full life span in 2.5 gallons, it may live for year or two if you're lucky but really our goal should be allowing these animals to live out their entire natural life without sickness or disease, premature death. How long do betta fish live? 6 years 9 years? How many people do you know that have kept a betta fish in a 2.5 gallon tank for that amount of time? I am willing to bet most of these fish succumb to illness in 1 year or less.

I guess my point is it takes a better mastery of the hobby to successfully keep fish in smaller aquarium, it's actually more work. Bigger tanks are just easier to maintain is the simple message I am trying to convey here.. mo' water less problems, you could say.

[njnolan1]

I've had friends keep bettas in tiny bowls for over two years. Yes, they would have lived longer in larger tanks I'm sure but they were in bowls 5 times smaller than 2.5 gallon tanks so I'm sure if the were in those tanks they would have lived at least 3+. They're life expectancy, at least what I've read on betta forum stickies, is 3-6 years. I've had many, many customers tell me they've had bettas live for years in little one gallon bowls with weekly cleanings. I've had some tell me up to 7 years in small bowls. Older individuals (60+) who have no reason to lie. The people who seem to have the best luck use distilled water and I think the main reason the fish don't live longer is due to the fact that most don't use heaters or try to keep the fish above 78.

I've been poor most of my life and I find your statement a bit obtuse. How is one to invest without physically having the money to do so? I would love to be able to invest in better brands and products but if I only have 30 bucks in the bank how am I supposed to spend 50+? Not to get personal but I'm in school, working PT (80-125 a week) for just above minimum wage and have to share my fiance's car, pay two school bills, by food, gas, etc... 73 dollars is a ton of money in my eyes. I can't even afford to go see my mother in NJ. It's been nearly a year but I have no where to stay so now not only do I have to spend 200+ on a round trip ticket I'm going to need hundreds of dollars for a motel. How does one afford only the best? You could say "why does one without money have pets?" and I'd agree with you. But the frogs were given to me and I trust no one to care for them that I know personally. I am trying my best...

I totally agree with you that a larger tank is easier to maintain. I always tell customers this. But they're more expensive too... Even petco's dollar a gallon deal only covers the tank right? Not the hood/light, heater and filter? It's still going to cost me like 50+. Trust me, I want a larger tank but the fish seem fine and happy in my little tank. They eat, swim around and hang out. Unhappy fish don't eat. It's the frogs that started acting up. But they definitely seem to calm down when I turn the overhead lights off. They're not sluggish or anything and they eat without hesitation. I think the white mark is healing and was probably a wound from rubbing on the plastic when I had the lights on 10 hours a day. With the exception of one recent test that showed a small amount of ammonia (because I was over feeding, the frogs were not eating the leftover food, I feed a lot less now) all of my tests for the past couple of months have been very clean. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates and <10 nitrates.

I don't think this is going anywhere . I appreciate your time and opinions and tips. I've considered all of your advice

[njnolan1]

Any advice on how to safely start a new tank using everything from the old tank. I was thinking that if I just move everything over to a 5 gallon tank all the nasty stuff in the gravel, that that hasn't been vacced up, will cloud the water and cause a spike in ammonia? I would add 2.5 gallons of new water too but still. Probably 5 more pounds of gravel as well and eventually more live plants.

[mpmistr]

I would place the frogs into a critter carrier with fresh, clean water (or old tank water) and move everything to the new tank. Do you have a filter? If so move that for sure. Once it's moved let it sit for an hour or so then add back in the frogs. The beneficial bacteria from your frogs should take over and all will be well.

I would avoid gravel entirely. Perhaps try smooth silica sand? It's much easier to clean, the only easier to clean method is glass-bottom, but I like sand personally. Looks more natural.

[njnolan1]

I would place the frogs into a critter carrier with fresh, clean water (or old tank water) and move everything to the new tank. Do you have a filter? If so move that for sure. Once it's moved let it sit for an hour or so then add back in the frogs. The beneficial bacteria from your frogs should take over and all will be well.

I would avoid gravel entirely. Perhaps try smooth silica sand? It's much easier to clean, the only easier to clean method is glass-bottom, but I like sand personally. Looks more natural.

Thanks!

I would probably just buy the 5 gallon betta bow which will have its own filter. Why should I avoid gravel? I have no trouble cleaning it as I just gravel vac out the debris. I also thought gravel was an excellent way to provide surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow on. In fact, my tank's water finally cycled after I added gravel. Months I spent struggling with water conditions (bare bottom at the time) but a week after adding gravel the readings were perfect! I rinse out all the tiny pieces that might get stuck in their mouths too. Never used sand but have read good things and bad things. They don't eat the sand while digging through for food? I've read they could become impacted if they eat too much sand but who knows. There's so many different opinions on this stuff and very little proof. Most of it is just hear say.

Thanks again for your tips!

[njnolan1]

I hope I didn't sound rude at all! I didn't mean to be if I did