Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

[sepgundamrg]

Hi, after seeing the thread about keeping multiple darts together ina smaller tank, I would like to ask about keeping them together in a larger tank. I have recently aquired a new tank that is over 160 us. gallons in size. The tank is only 2ft tall and is a large octagon. The internal length of the tank from side to side is 44 inches, and unfortunately I didn't get the length of the individual sides. I got this tank for either a bearded dragon, or a dart frog community. I would love to do darts in it(already gathering supplies such as small tree trunk for the center) but I would like to keep more then just 1 color morph. I have seen large tanks with different colored darts in them before and would like to know the verdict on keeping multiple similar sized species together in this tank. I know it still isn't as large as a forest, but it is definitely larger then the usual vivarium they are kept in.

[Kurt]

Well, the dart frog community will likely chew me out for saying this, but if you insist of multiple types of darts, how about tincs of various colors and markings. At least this way they will be all the same species and you will have variety. There are blues (azureus), Oyapoks, citronellas, powder blues, cobalts, reginas, and so on.

Why the dart frog community frowns upon this is because they do not want any "mutts" mudding up the gene pool. They, like myself are purists. We don't like hybrids and the like. We like things the way nature created them.

Now if I were setting up that tank I would either house blues or Oyapoks in it.

[sepgundamrg]

I read on one dart site after making that post that it was ok to keep different genus of darts together since they cant inter breed, as long as they have the same housing requirements. Whats the boards opinion on this information? by genus I mean d.xxxxx and p.xxxxx

[Kurt]

Dendrobates and Phyllobates. Not sure what web site you speak of. In theory, there would be no cross contaminations because captive bred dart frogs are suposedly non toxic. Not sure I 100% buy that. One thing to consider is the fact that a lot of dart frogs are terratorial and thaty could present problems.

Like I said, if it were I that was putting this tank together, I would stick to one species.

[sepgundamrg]

Amphibiancare.com >> Mixing and Keeping Different Species of Reptiles and Amphibians Together

Certain species of poison dart frogs (Dendrobatids) have been kept together successfully by some hobbyists. Avoid any species that could potentially produce hybrids, instead sticking to dart frogs from different genera such as Dendrobates azureus with Phyllobates bicolor.

[Kurt]

Well, that is Devin Edmonds site, so I will support his opinion. He has been working with amphibians longer than me and has published two books, that I know of.

[james67]

Well, the dart frog community will likely chew me out for saying this, but if you insist of multiple types of darts, how about tincs of various colors and markings. At least this way they will be all the same species and you will have variety. There are blues (azureus), Oyapoks, citronellas, powder blues, cobalts, reginas, and so on.

Why the dart frog community frowns upon this is because they do not want any "mutts" mudding up the gene pool. They, like myself are purists. We don't like hybrids and the like. We like things the way nature created them.

Now if I were setting up that tank I would either house blues or Oyapoks in it.

hello all, i see that this is a pretty old thread, but it seems that more could be said on the topic, and since im bored why not let this be my intro to this site (some of you may know me from DB).

as far as mixed enclosures go, your right kurt, they are highly frowned upon, and generally as one researches more, they come to the same conclusion. however the logic in the statement you made may be based on some misinformation. IF a mixed enclosure in absolutely necessary it is HIGHLY recommended (and for good reason) that different morphs of the same species NOT be used. the problem lies in the frogs ability to interbreed (same species/ different morph). this is the real concern. many morhps are nearly identical and creating hybrids can occur even if the keeper is trying to prevent it. it wouldn't be the first time that someone realized "hey i used to have 5 frogs, now i have 7". at this point the hybrids could potentially blend in with the parents, etc. and that's when breeding is attempted to be suppressed, and all known offspring are culled.

auratus, leucomelas and tinctorius WILL interbreed as well. they are related closely enough to "do the deed"

moral is... IF you have to mix PLEASE dont mix morphs. this is the most dangerous type of mixing, not to mention that as another member stated, tincs (in this case) will battle and it often results in the loss of an animal from stress and starvation.

james

[Rukufox]

Okay I see this is an old thread but I have another point to be brought up.
I understand the importance of keeping a bloodline pure, but where would the world be if species never cross breed? There wouldn't be half the species there are to day. Now don't get me wrong, I'm still conserned for the species of each individual frog's needs and such. My point is that whether in nature or captivity two frogs from slightly varying subspecies are prone to cross breed eventually. I don't think she should intentionally try to breed "mutts" but it's not a bad thing if it did happen by chance.

[IrishRonin]

ok so im not saying one way or another on a mixed incloser because i have mixed feeling about that both ways but what I do have to say is if nature has taught us anything-Anything close enough to breed, will breed. On the other hand humans have distroyed enough things on this planet lets not intetionally do more harm.

[SNAKE]

You can keep two sepecies togother, ONLY IF the tank is very well planted, good in size, and if the two species are different.
So a cohabitation is possible with tinctorius azureus for example (wich will occupate the "low" part of the tank) and a represantant of the Ranitomeya genus (wich will occupate the "high" part of the tank). You see, in this case, there is no possible risk of breedint amoung the two different species.
Note that your tank is not VERY big. It's the average size tank for more than a trio.

[mmattys30]

Can't you just keep all males or am I missing something here.??? As

[Rukufox]

Can't you just keep all males or am I missing something here.??? As

The main consern of the debate is the cross breeding, but different species have different levels of agression too. Like with fish, it wouldn't be smart to put a whole bunch of males together just because they have a different fin type, they would still tear eachother apart. It would be very important to make sure you don't cross two highly aggressive species together, or even frogs from two completely different habitates at risk of them poisoning eachother with their natural toxins.

[flybyferns]

I'm thinking, those interested, and who are following this thread and these current posts .... need to read post #8
Alex has taken the responsible approach (and response) to mixing if inclined to do so.

[deranged chipmunk]

oh, i definitely agree. and i have seen it done very well by some hobbyists, mostly european. i've also seen darts with anoles and geckos and such. i still wouldn't do it, but it has and can be done. in fact i remember reading a newsletter by LLL Reptile, i believe where they briefly mention housing Leucs and certain species of ranitomeya. but they mostly warn away from it.

[Geo]

While I have no experience mixing dart frog species I have done mixed setups before. My longest running habitat here has oriental fire belly toads, chinese fire belly newts, and american green tree frogs. The Toads and Newts come from very similar biomes / regions so I didn't think there should be any issues. The Green Tree Frogs were a last minute pet shop rescue in which I had nowhere to put them so decided to see what would happen if I added them. I kept an eye on them all for a week and there has never been an issue a year later.

The tree frogs hang out in the top of the habitat in the plants and branches while the toads remain water / land based and the newts the same depending on time of the year. From observation it is clear to me that they are all aware of each other but none of them have ever had any conflicts. I have a lot of branches creating different climbing levels should they want to hang out by themselves for awhile, plants adding foliage for hiding spots, two different land masses and so on. To be honest the tree frogs are only seen at feeding time and many times I have seen the newts sleeping on top of the toads so no problems.

I generally wouldn't recommend mixing unless you are willing to spend a certain amount of time in the beginning to watch for any problems. You would need to be diligent for a few weeks until they relax a bit and their natural tendencies start to show. That is when things may get interesting.

[Heatheranne]

I'd have to agree. Sometimes cross breeding can lead to bad genes. This has been proven in some pacman mixes.

[mmattys30]

I have a 90x45x90 and keep 6 terribis and 22 tricolours and 2 lowlands and they all live happily together with no problems at all.

[deranged chipmunk]

wow, these threads seem to re-born on every forum related to darts....lol when i first started looking into frogs, i was definitely all for mixing. now, i am kind of on the fence, leaning towards no.

while many arguments could be made one way or the other, i think the darts purist's point of view is a bit convoluted (i think is the word i am searching for). as i understand it, the point of keeping species blood lines pure because of their declining numbers in the wild, is pure, unadulterated poppycock. IF that were true, then i ask this one question of those people: How many of your frogs have you donated to help restore the species? and i don't mean to just randomly release frogs into the wild, but how many have donated their frogs to conservation programs designed for just that purpose?

now, the absolute best reasoning i have read, and i truly agree with this stand point, is for quality control. i believe that if a person want to purchase a d. tinc. 'new river', than that is what they should receive. not a hybrid that was advertised to be a new river. the problem lies in irresponsibility of the frog keepers who say "i'm gonna mix, but it's just gonna be for me", which in turn becomes a sale because the owner needs cash. now that hybrid is out there and could possibly contaminate the gene pool of other's collections.

now,i propose this question to purists, Why are you worried about hybrids in the marketplace, don't you purchase your frogs from reputable breeders? i'm sure the purists are NOT buying their frogs off of Juan at the bottom of the off ramp (I got oranges, mangos and Dendrobates!), so exactly how would their gene pool get contaminated?

ok, now as far as fighting and aggression, that should be a no brainer, although it's not to some people.

i think hybrids DO have a place in this hobby. provided they are bred by experts in the field. i mean come on, who wouldn't want to see their "terrestrial dart" climbing up into the top parts of their tank because they have a bit of Leuc in them. but see, i'm thinking like a beginner in darts (because i am). a lot of people are put off by the shyer species. well, with hybridization, those "pretty blue ones" that are only for the hardcore frogger, will most likely be purchased by someone who will love and care for them, just as if they were pure line. provided of course, if boldness is a trait passed on. THAT is why i said by experts. The average Joe, should not try this at home. but i am also a realist who knows it is happening as i type this.

and last but not least, parasites and toxicity.......well, no arguments from me on that one....LOL

also, may i remind you that i am the person who think it's poppycock that frogs will drown if water is higher than their chin (sick frogs excluded of course), so i may just be full of ****. and just for the record, i am an advocate of single species tanks. i believe you get a more wonderful understanding of your frogs behaviors and habits when they are by themselves.

[Heatheranne]

I have to agree with DartEd. As much as I'd love to keep a rainbow of frogs together, the risks outweigh the benefits. Being they are so small it's not hard to have more than one tank if you desire more. Or, build a large tank with a siliconed glass divider.