Green frog + Bullfrog / Dusted crickets

[Gnag the nameless]

I am actually addressing 2 issues in this thread, so the title may be deceiving.

Here are my frogs and their setup:

American Bullfroglet [Rana Catesbiana] -Gnag the Nameless:
2.5 inches whilst squatting
Brown coloration
Female

Green froglet [Rana Clamitans] -Bumpy Digtoad:
2.0-2.1 inches whilst squatting
Brown coloration
Female

Tank setup:
Gnag the nameless's Album: Gnag and Bumpy's domain

First issue: Green frog + Bullfrog?
As of late, Gnag and Bumpy have both been growing a lot. It was the evening, and I was watching Gnag and Bumpy hunt, as I often do. Gnag was out, going after a cricket, and Bumpy, spotting another, stalked out of the cave, getting ready to jump. She hesitated for about 10 seconds as is normal. During those 10 seconds, I noticed a ridge going down her back. Instantly, my hours of frog research kicked in, and I thought "Bullfrogs don't have that! Green frogs do!" And then I realized. Even before this, I had doubts of Bumpy's bullfrog-ness. The narrow nose, smaller size, and shyer behavior all suggested this. Gnag's fearless attitude, size, more blunt nose, and ravenous appetite, growth, coloration and patterns, as well as the fold around her ear confirms she is not a Green frog.

So now you know my problem. I have insufficient money to buy a whole new 30G [but enough for a 20G] tank, setup, and filter for Bumpy as most of my money is going into the Frog First Aid kit. Bumpy and Gnag have been living together for nearly 6 months, with no problem whatsoever. No fighting, aggressive croaking, none of it. I am planning to get a 55 Gallon for Gnag in 6 months to a year from now, and I will keep the 30G for Bumpy. I am seperating them, no matter what, if anything aggressive occurs, or when Gnag gets big enough to make a snack out of Bumpy. Still, is it bad for them to be together?

Second issue: Dusting crickets

Currently, I have a UVB bulb on the tank for 9-12 hours every day, tilted so it provides light but still enough to give my frogs the Vitamin D-3 they need. Also, I gutload crickets with Zilla's cricket diet and quencher. However, I do not dust crickets because of the setup. I could do it, but due to the water, it would be tricky. Is the current diet + UVB treatment enough to prevent MBD in 2 growing frogs? If not, how many and how much should I dust crickets?

Thank you in advance. My frogs mean so much to me, I'm trying to cover every possible factor.

[Bombina Bob]

Hi there Gnag
I really wouldnt worry about the two frogs being together,(if one is larger than i would worry), but they both come from the same area in eastern north america and they coexist with eachother in ponds lakes and slow moving rivers. A 20 to 30 gallon should be enough for the green frog. If Gnag starts to bully Bumpy a large steralite tub would work if you need to separate them, just add 3-4 inches of water, a dry spot for basking and a hide, and i almost forgot, A LID

Good luck with your frogs

[Gnag the nameless]

Yeah, both frogs have lived in peace together for quite a long time. I'm just going to move Gnag when she gets too big.

Gnag already bullies Bumpy a bit, food competition and resolving it is one tricky thing I have to do. Usually, I get Gnag to go after crickets at one end of the tank whilst Bumpy, by the cave, goes after crickets while she can.

[UncleChester]

Do you have any recent clear pictures of your frogs, specifically showing their backs? The ridges along the backs of a green frog are usually visible at a very young age (even while the tail is still present). You had posted an older picture of the two of them together and I couldn't see any ridges. One of the frogs was partially obscured though.

[Gnag the nameless]

No, sorry Brian. I'll try and get some photo's.

Sorry for the long wait. I've been busy setting up a 20G High tank for Bumpy. I'll explain the situation:

Last night, I was watching the frogs hunt, as I normally do, and Gnag had just leapt after a cricket, eating it whole. I'd been feeding them dusted crickets as well. Anyways, Gnag turned, about to head back into the cave, when Bumpy stepped beside her facing her side, croaked aggressively, and violently bit at her, twice! There were no crickets nearby, and I was watching silently. Immediately, I moved to push Bumpy away from Gnag, and they both fled into the cave. For the rest of the night, Gnag did not eat one more cricket, and Bumpy had 7 instead of her regular 3-5. I'm not sure what caused Bumpy to act so violently, but this is definitely a first. Nothing major has occurred since then, but I am not risking another incident.

Earlier today, I consulted my friends on the matter, and they say I should not seperate them, that the frogs may get lonely or it is a waste. However, none of them own frogs, let alone Ranids. Lastly, if Gnag turns on Bumpy, the results could be horrific. Gnag is much larger, and has a larger mouth. And Bumpy's legs, though they are strong, could fit into Gnag's mouth. So, basically, I am not risking anything. The setup should be finished by midnight in my time, and Bumpy will be placed into it immediately.

I do know that Bumpy will need a larger tank, but I simply do not have the money for a new 30G and decor/equipment. I do have a small filter, but constant maintenance will have to be put into play. I will post a picture of the finished 20G when it is done.

Thank you in advance.

[Gnag the nameless]

Just placed Bumpy into her new tank only 5 minutes ago. Since my camera is out of battery, I'll have to wait until it's charged to take photo's.

Bumpy seems really scared, she's breathing fast, and not moving around much. I'm really worried. Is this normal for a W/C frog moving into a new tank?

[demon amphibians]

Hi there Gnag
I really wouldnt worry about the two frogs being together,(if one is larger than i would worry), but they both come from the same area in eastern north america and they coexist with eachother in ponds lakes and slow moving rivers. A 20 to 30 gallon should be enough for the green frog. If Gnag starts to bully Bumpy a large steralite tub would work if you need to separate them, just add 3-4 inches of water, a dry spot for basking and a hide, and i almost forgot, A LID

Good luck with your frogs

I don't wanna step over you bob about the frogs being together. So I apologize if i come across disrespectful. If one frog is big enough to eat the other it is never a good idea to keep them together, whether they are the same species or if they live in the same area or not. Right now bullfrogs are a pest in the area i live because they are destroying the native inhabitants mostly the other species of frogs. There is a huge list that they are just devouring. There is a big difference between wild bullfrogs and captive frogs however what they choose to eat is always the same. And they just love smaller frogs. I went fishing with a friend once and nothing was biting so we went frog hunting we caught over 30 bullfrogs of various sizes i put them all in a cooler. I took them home and was setting up a tank for them. when i checked on them i realized that one bullfrog had another frog in its mouth they were both almost the same size. Well my wild frog adventures soon came to a quick end needless to say. No matter how much i fed them they would just keep eating each other. Captive frogs will do the same especially if they are different species. best bet keep them separate. You don't want someone to turn up missing.

[UncleChester]

They won't get lonely- seperating them was a good idea especially if the size difference is getting noticable. An American Bullfrog can take down prey that you wouldn't think will fit inside them until you see it happen. So good work, and give the recently moved frog some time to settle back in before you start to worry to much

[Gnag the nameless]

I didn't think they would get lonely, I've read that American bullfrogs don't like being with other frogs. Not sure about Green frogs and how much they like being with other frogs, though I doubt it's any different.

Size difference was definitely worrying. Gnag's mouth could envelope Bumpy's legs with ease, and maybe half of her body. Glad that there is no possibility frog-eat-frog action now. I've heard of American bullfrogs taking down birds and bats, and I've seen more than one video of an adult American bullfrog hunting and then devouring a mouse only slightly smaller than it

I'm glad I did it, it might make things less stressful for both frogs- in Bumpy's case, once she settles down.
Food competition will no longer be an issue, either. And as for water changing, I've got that water conditioner now, so that'll be no problem. My only concern is the filter in Bumpy's tank, I'll need a larger and more powerful one eventually. Even so, it fits the bill for now.

Thanks for the advice, Brian

[Gnag the nameless]

Bumpy's already settling in, finding nice spots by the piece of driftwood I put in the tank She's not found the cave supported by moss yet, but I bet she will. That, and the driftwood both give great basking spots and hiding spots. I've placed one cricket in the tank, though I doubt she'll eat it. Gnag is already acting different, as if she were less stressed out. She's more out in the open than normal. Maybe it's just me, but still. Oh, and I nearly forgot: I have wallpaper on the back and one side of Bumpy's tank, I have to leave one side open for the UVB lamp.

[I washed the driftwood very thoroughly before adding it to the tank, and used the water-conditioner on it as well.]

[Psychotic]

The plant in the picture appears to be duckweed. Frogs really like hiding in it. I plan on getting some myself.

[Gnag the nameless]

Ok, now I am worried. Gnag has been acting strange. She only ate 1-3 crickets last night, and she is hiding, and hasn't moved for the whole day from her cave, or even into view. What could be wrong? She seems a bit fat, too. Nothing irregular, though, and no odd spots/bumps. I gave her a short luke-warm water bath with a drop of natural honey.

Could the attack by Bumpy on Gnag a few days triggered this behaviour in Gnag? Or could she be constipated/ill?

As for Bumpy, she's already croaked once, so she must be settling in. Unlike Gnag, she's been eating a lot. And she's out and swimming at night.

[Gnag the nameless]

Oh, Gnag just ate a cricket. That's a good sign. Even so, I'm still worried.

[Psychotic]

Well I'm not a vet so I can't say if there is anything wrong. How often do you feed her? As they get older they only need to eat every 3 days or so.

Also even though she is still in her own home, it may still feel a little new to her not having the other frog in there. So she may need an acclimation period to get used to the other frog not being there.

Hopefully she doesn't have bloat. But that would be very apparent if she did. She would swell up like a balloon and die very fast. I've had a frog die of it before.

Another thing is parasites. Mostly all WC frogs will have parasites. They normally can live with them. But any kind of stress or illness will weaken their immune system, letting the parasites run rampant. This is why so many WC animals die in captivity. Especially imports.

However bullfrogs usually take captive life pretty well. So just keep an eye on her and hopefully she will come around. Also do you feed her at night time and turn the lights off? All my bullfrogs prefer to eat at night. They didn't care much when they were smaller. But once they got around 3 or 4 inches snout to vent, they started becoming more nocturnal.

So if you don't already feed at night, I think it would be worth a try.

[Gnag the nameless]

She ate a few crickets last night, and was in front of her cave, which is a good sign. She's still looking a bit fat, but she usually does. I think she's just getting used to not having Bumpy there. Maybe she thought a predator swooped in, got Bumpy, and is waiting for her to show her face? At their lake they had a huge variety of predators: Snakes, bigger frogs, herons, fishermen, large fish, bears, raccoons, and big turtles.

She's always been a pretty fat frog, and this is nothing really irregular. I looked at her when she was swimming, and it turns out, I'd made the common mistake: Frogs look fat whilst sitting.

Parasites have always been a big concern to me, and I've not the money currently to treat the frogs for any, if it's a Vet trip that is needed. If all I need is distilled water, a similar agent to neosporin/panacur, then I can do that.

Gnag has adapted very well, and so much better than Bumpy, to captivity. Oh, and Bumpy is doing good. She's started croaking and eating again.

I feed my frogs in their evening [When I turn off the UVB lamp and turn on the dim incandescent one at the other side of the room] and then at night [the evening process lasts only from 7:00-10:00]. Normally, they'd be swimming around at night.