Do frogs get lonely?

[Malduroque]

"I know it will never cuddle with my hand or anything and I don't mean to imply that it will. But, when I first got it it was terrified of me and now it is very comfortable with my hand picking it up. (Granted he hates it when I wake him up.) If he had no concept of such things he would remain terrified of me for as long as I had him as he was the first few days."

I don't think anyone, myself included, said that they can't learn things within their environment. That's how they survive. Heck, even earthworms can be conditioned to navigate simple mazes when a mild electric shock is the result of going the wrong way.

Your frog simply became acclimatized to a human. Many will do that especially when they associate us with feeding. I have a Ranid, notorious for their skittishness, who is no longer jumpy even when I remove and replace the terrarium cover directly over his head. I can also stick my hand in there and tong feed him.

Of course, he doesn't recognize ME personally, these animals do not form personal bonds with people. He's just now less fearful of a creature of my general size and countenance because he does not associate that form with danger but does associate it with food. I could invite a neighbor to perform the same actions as I do and he would also display the same tranquility that he does for me.

So we're still a long way however from 'happy', 'loving' and the host of other complex emotions that some herpers insist on ascribing to their pets.

[Crystal6]

Frogs have emotions, but not in the way humans interpret them. I feel there emotions serve to keep the alive and not to bond to others. The only long for food, safety, and every so often a mate, some long for territory, but that's it.

^ I like this interpretation of it best. I don't mean to start an argument anyway.

[hyla]

Regardless of what each individual believes a frog is or is not capable of, it is clear that we as humans (who certainly do feel emotions) love our herps and are very passionate about them. So if you have a frog and it is healthy and thriving because of the care you give it, then I think you can say and think it is happy or sad or angry or whatever other emotion you can think of because it is yours. The most important thing is that we all have the best understanding of how to care for them and that is why we are all so fortunate to have this website!

[Mellyjoe04]

Well I have two whites tree frogs and I got them at different times. The first did well by himself but we thought he would get lonely as you did. We decided to get him another friend and they are always together. They are always clinging to the same wall, same tree, always touching when they sleep. I think they are happier together. I think Kermit is happier now that he has someone to be with. Although, something I have learned is if you want to get another, they should be around the same size and same type. Something important is that you don't mix. Get another grey tree frog around the same size! I think it would be great for your froggie!

[Malduroque]

Once again, science and reason are trumped by emotion and superstition.

There are no happy forgs. There are no sad frogs. There are no lonely frogs. There are no frogs that are accountants, computer programmers or film directors and even though they jump well, there are no frogs in the NBA.

[Crystal6]

Once again, science and reason are trumped by emotion and superstition.

There are no happy forgs. There are no sad frogs. There are no lonely frogs. There are no frogs that are accountants, computer programmers or film directors and even though they jump well, there are no frogs in the NBA.

Science? You have scientific proof then? Because I would find an article on White's nervous systems very interesting. (If you have no sources, I don't understand why you are arguing so much against someone who does have some kind of evidence.)

[UncleChester]

My gray treefrogs pretty much ignore each other, and treat each other as furniture.

However, having another frog in there reduces the chances that any crickets will go unnoticed and manage to hide somewhere in the cage, die, and stink up the place. This is justification enough for adding another gray treefrog to the party. Maybe a female would be best if your (hyla's) husband isn't on board with the frogs. A male calling might be an irritant (my girlfriend and I quite enjoy the calling though).

.....There are no frogs that are accountants, computer programmers or film directors and even though they jump well, there are no frogs in the NBA.

This would make a great Disney movie. Especially if directed by a frog.

[Tropicok]

This was a very interesting debate and I'm glad the question was asked in the first place. Please forgive me the reptilian brain remark, since MY reptilian brain has been fried the past ten days from a bout with bronchitis. I have worked with people who associate emotions and animals so close as to make themselves ill. We see this in a well-known animal defense group where members relive ie. resuffer perceived abuse and treatment of creatures. A level head and complete knowledge of animals and their behavior must be learned before defending their status. It's always nice to have a pair or trio of any critter in an enclosure and if they don't eat each other, get adequate amounts of food and find their comfortable space then all is right in their world.

[hyla]

And what a debate it has been! Little did I know asking if frogs are social creatures would spark such a fury in some people!!! It has been interesting, and I wonder if anyone else will chime in...
As for myself, I found my tree frog last May on my porch so getting another will depend on if I find another one there this year or not! I doubt they would be the same size though considering Hyla is much more, shall we say, "hearty" now that she is indoors.
She was the mason jar frog if anyone remembers the story. I found her, put her in the jar to show my mother and then put her back where I found her but left the jar. The next morning she was back in the jar...and she continued to hunt at night on the porch and then proceed to go back inside the jar during the day. She did this for two weeks until I decided I was going to snatch her up!

[Malduroque]

Science? You have scientific proof then? Because I would find an article on White's nervous systems very interesting. (If you have no sources, I don't understand why you are arguing so much against someone who does have some kind of evidence.)

What evidence? Anecdotal? You want anecdotal? I got it! Over the years I've had a dozen or so instances where I had a single specimen and later added a one or more tank mates. The single specimen never appeared "lonely". Not one of them "bonded", became "happy" or frolicked around the enclosure like long lost fraternity brothers. No, they acted just like frogs, toads or newts; they ignored one another and went about the business of surviving.

Now just to be fair I've never owned a White's tree frog so maybe they're specially endowed. Maybe they even feel emotional pain if you mention that one of them has gained a little weight or that the other one has a nicer shade of green.

Interesting thing here is that this debate seems split along gender lines. Interesting, but not surprising

Since you are the one claiming that something (emotions) exists in frogs, I say the burden of proof is on you. But, let's get back to one of my early questions: why do you so want the frogs to possess the emotions that you claim?

[Julia]

Interesting thing here is that this debate seems split along gender lines. Interesting, but not surprising

I wouldn't go as far as saying its a gender thing. Or maybe I am an exception. I enjoy my frogs very much, but not believe they have emotion beyond their survival instinct.

[Wambli]

With great care in the interest of thorough and accurate research I separated my frogs in different rooms so they could not hear the other frogs answer to the following question. I figured my frogs would be able to help with this question.

Do frogs get lonely?

Below are the answers right from the frogs mouth.

Red eye – Girl - Girlie: Alone… never… I love Squirter… he is so cutie and keeps me warm at night.

Red eye – Boy – Squirter: Alone… wow that would be nice. Girlie is always trying to sit on my leaf and then it flops over.

Whites Dumpy – Boy – Bud: Alone… Nope… I like to have my women around and I think the human puts more crickets in my cage because there are a bunch of us in here. But you could get rid of the other male… he always try’s to out due my vocals.

Whites Dumpy – Girl – Sharron: Alone… I don’t think so… who would I sit in the water dish with…that would be very lonely. I don’t think I could get the cage as messy as I like it by myself.

Whites Dumpy – Boy – Dude: Alone… Wow that would be nice. Just me and my human that’s all I need… well maybe some crickets… and fresh water… television… a spritz every now and again. Yep… that’s all I need.

Whites Dumpy – Girl – Duedet: Well I don’t know. Alone. Never thought about it much…. I think I just hang out with the others on the side of the tank… hey you know without the other guys to put my feet on I would slip down the glass. So no… not alone for me and don’t tell him but Bud is kind of sexy.

Bullfrog – Boy – BigGuy: alone. Hell no… speedie is soft to sit on and I like the way she chases the gold fish over to me. But if you mean no humans I would be fine with that. My human tries to hold me too much. I hate it… but I keep smiling so he will give me crickets.

Bullfrog – Girl – Speedie: alone… I would love to be alone. BigGuy is almost 2 lbs and I am just a bit over ¾ lb… when he sits on me I feel like my eyes are popping out. But with the BigGuy there the human does not try to pick me up much… so maybe lets keep the BigGuy around… I hate it when the human grabs me and tries to tickle my stomach and make stupid sounds while talking to me.

I tried to get responses from my greys but they were too busy trying to climb the walls to answer.

[Crystal6]

What evidence? Anecdotal? You want anecdotal? I got it! Over the years I've had a dozen or so instances where I had a single specimen and later added a one or more tank mates. The single specimen never appeared "lonely". Not one of them "bonded", became "happy" or frolicked around the enclosure like long lost fraternity brothers. No, they acted just like frogs, toads or newts; they ignored one another and went about the business of surviving.

Now just to be fair I've never owned a White's tree frog so maybe they're specially endowed. Maybe they even feel emotional pain if you mention that one of them has gained a little weight or that the other one has a nicer shade of green.

Interesting thing here is that this debate seems split along gender lines. Interesting, but not surprising

Since you are the one claiming that something (emotions) exists in frogs, I say the burden of proof is on you. But, let's get back to one of my early questions: why do you so want the frogs to possess the emotions that you claim?

I've never seen one of my cats frolicking around either. Are you claiming that because they are not humans they feel no emotions either? Because I have one cat who could totally prove you wrong.

But we're talking about frogs. The problem is: How do you determine if something has emotion? Living with people, I notice you can't always tell what a human is feeling, so how I be sure what my frog is or isn't capable of feeling? Especially when I don't speak frog and I can't read his body language for hints because.. he's a frog. (Obviously different species would have different ways of expressing their feelings, if they express the feelings at all.)

But you seem to think I "want" frogs to have emotions. I am not saying that I do. I simply "want" to know if anyone has any SCIENTIFIC proof. And I don't mean "I didn't seem him acting like he has emotions." Because that proves NOTHING. I know people who act very happy but are totally miserable and vice versa. You can't be sure of somethings emotions based only on what you observed.

Scientific proof, to me, would be "There was a human who was born with a damage frontal lobe and he could not feel emotion. (He was still able to communicate so it was possible to find out what he was feeling.) Frogs don't have frontal lobes therefor frogs can not feel emotions. *insert link to article here*" Obviously a just made that whole quote up but, just to give you an idea of what I mean when I say "scientific" proof. If no one has any scientific proof then this debate is stupid because it is based entirely on opinion.

Again, I am not demanding my frog be able to feel. I am, as you say, able to love him for just being what he is, a frog. I am merely curious. (I think either side of an arguement should always have proof to back their claims. Otherwise no side is better off then the other.)

[Kurt]

I have never observed any behavior in frogs or any other amphibian that would lead me to believe they possessed any other emotions other than fear, hunger, and lust. Most animals possess these basic emotions as they are needed to survive. Some animals, such as sponges and jellyfish, don't even possess these.

Now, we humans probably have the greatest range of emotions of any animal upon the planet, very few creatures come close to our range. Animals that do come to mind are birds and our fellow mammals. Of course, most of these animals are social in behavior, while all amphibians are not. The problem comes in when we impose our emotional qualities on animals that don't have them to begin with. If animal is not social, it will not feel any bonding emotions such as love or depression when left alone.

[Malduroque]

Dearest Crystal6,

Again in trying to prove something exists as opposed to not existing, the burden of proof falls squarely on you (geez, this sounds just like the atheist vs god debate).

For instance, I did a search on 'frogs and differential calculus' and 'frogs can't do differential calculus'. I found nothing aside from calculus tutoring sites (for humans I presume). So, by your thinking, I was unable to prove that frogs can't do differential calculus equations?

I ask you to read Kurt's most recent post in this thread. Kurt is a legitimate Herpetologist. Is that scientific enough for ya'?

Finally, for someone who claimed to not want to argue the topic, you've certainly remained quite active in the argument.

[Crystal6]

Dearest Crystal6,

Again in trying to prove something exists as opposed to not existing, the burden of proof falls squarely on you (geez, this sounds just like the atheist vs god debate).

For instance, I did a search on 'frogs and differential calculus' and 'frogs can't do differential calculus'. I found nothing aside from calculus tutoring sites (for humans I presume). So, by your thinking, I was unable to prove that frogs can't do differential calculus equations?

I ask you to read Kurt's most recent post in this thread. Kurt is a legitimate Herpetologist. Is that scientific enough for ya'?

Finally, for someone who claimed to not want to argue the topic, you've certainly remained quite active in the argument.

*groan* Okay first: Do I think frogs get lonely? No. No I do not. Do I think frogs can feel SOME emotions? Yes. Yes I do. Do I think they feel warm fuzzy feelings towards me? No. And neither does Kurt from what I can tell. So there is no arguing to be done. Unless you want to debate which emotions they can feel, if any. You seem to think they can feel none, Kurt seems to think they can feel some. (Like lust or hunger.) I say maybe they can also feel satisfaction after they eat. But whatever! People can think whatever they want because without proof it's just opinionated stuff. Unless Kurt says "here's a link to an article about this" I say, who cares who thinks what?

And that's really all I have left to say on this matter. I'm not here to prove frogs can do ANYTHING and apparently neither are you. So since I'm not looking to prove what they can or can't do and you aren't, why argue? No offense meant! I shut up now!

[Kurt]

Here's a link to an article about this subject - http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-lonely-2.html

[Malduroque]

*groan* Okay first: Do I think frogs get lonely? No. No I do not. Do I think frogs can feel SOME emotions? Yes. Yes I do. Do I think they feel warm fuzzy feelings towards me? No. And neither does Kurt from what I can tell. So there is no arguing to be done. Unless you want to debate which emotions they can feel, if any. You seem to think they can feel none, Kurt seems to think they can feel some. (Like lust or hunger.) I say maybe they can also feel satisfaction after they eat. But whatever! People can think whatever they want because without proof it's just opinionated stuff. Unless Kurt says "here's a link to an article about this" I say, who cares who thinks what?

And that's really all I have left to say on this matter. I'm not here to prove frogs can do ANYTHING and apparently neither are you. So since I'm not looking to prove what they can or can't do and you aren't, why argue? No offense meant! I shut up now!

Ok, let's run down the list:
(Opinions drawn from reading and my own observations and common sense)
Do frogs feel -
Hunger- yes, but that's a drive, not an emotion
Lust - ditto
Fear - yes, not just in reacting to an immediate threat, but they will hide in anticipation of that threat after a time
The above are standard survival tools without which most species would cease to exist

Happy - No
Love - No
Lonely - No
Affection - No
Sad - No
Embarrassment - No

"Unless Kurt says "here's a link to an article about this" I say, who cares who thinks what?"
Hmm, you don't feel that there are folks out there who know more than you do on a subject, like a professional in the field? I sure hope you don't bring that attitude to your physician. 'Doctor, I don't accept your diagnosis without a valid link.'

[Crystal6]

I shut up now! For I feel people should be allowed to believe what they want.

[Malduroque]

I shut up now! For I feel people should be allowed to believe what they want.

Even if they are wrong...

Is there anything that says "I'm through here" better than a snappy icon? Thing is, you've resigned from this thread three times already. Seems like you're one of those gotta get the last word types.

Yes, this is America where, as Carl Sagan pointed out, newspapers have at most an occasional article on astronomy but virtually all have a daily astrology column. So yes, you're free to worship at the altar of superstition and pseudo-science to your hearts content. The earth is flat, humans never landed on the moon, the earth is 4000 years old, sasquatch, yetti and the loch ness monster, haunted houses, our president is a muslim and not a US citizen, AIDS was a curse sent from god, genies hang out in old lamps and there are frogs that hold backgammon tournaments on Tuesday nights.

Kind of makes you proud to be an American.

Mal

PS Never play poker with a tree frog, they have sticky fingers.