RETF died last night

[aaapalmer]

Hi again,
I posted last night about some weird behavior exhibited by one of our new RETF. That post is here:
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...vior-sick.html

Well, we woke up this morning to discover him dead on the bottom of the terrarium. I have video from our "frog camera" which shows that he was active last night until about 3:30. He sat on the water dish like normal for a while and moved around the tank. The last section of video show him climbing near the lower part of some plants and then he disappear behind the plants. We found him underneath those plants this morning.

We'd really like to know what happened because we have another RETF in the same terrarium (if we're doing something wrong or if there's something wrong with the setup, we want to know) and my kids are heart-broken today. We'd like to replace the frog at some point, but not until we are confident that we know how to properly care for these guys.

Here were what I believe to be the significant symptoms:
1. A few days ago, we noticed that when he was active at night, he would often hang from his forefeet and "stretch" his hind legs out. We weren't sure if this was normal froggy behavior or not, but it now appears that this behavior may have been significant.
2. As logged in the post above, he began discharging what we thought was pee but during the day when he was sleeping. In cleaning it up, there also appeared to be some blood from his bottom area. He had 2 or 3 of this "incidents" where he would pee down the glass while sleeping, with what looked like some blood also.
3. Following these incidents, he opened his eyes and woke up toward the end of the day (still daytime) and began the yawning-type behavior and the removal of the slimey junk from his skin. We understand now that this was likely a shedding/sloughing event.
4. After the shedding, he was a very dark green color with several patches of light-green.
5. When I removed him from the terrarium this morning, I noticed that he had one large wound on one hind foot and a second, smaller wound on the other hind foot. It may be that the odd hind-leg stretching behavior that we observed earlier (#1 above) was his way of scratching the wound or perhaps behavior associated with discomfort from it (see attached photos).

Ok... with all that in mind, what went wrong? BTW... tank stays between around 75-78 degrees, humidity is controlled to be around 70-80%. Feeding dusted crickets every other day. Water changed daily (was using RODI water but recently learned that they need minerals lost in the RODI process, so now using tap water treated with Prime dechlorinator). Setup is a 12x12x18 ZooMed terrarium with "eco-earth" substrate and artificial plants and two climbing limbs. CF lighting during the day and sometimes (if needed for heat) a "night light" at night.

Please help!

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[Bolisnide]

Ahh, I'm so sorry
I know exactly how you feel. Losing a pet is heartbreaking, and when you don't know why, it's even harder. And when you have to explain this event to your children, without real cause, it's so difficult...
There are many red-eye experts on this site, and I'm sure one of them will help you out.
The only things that jump out at me are the water, which you've already straightened out, and the blood in the urine. Could be a possible impaction?
I would also recommend upgrading to a larger enclosure when you can, especially when you decide you're ready for another red-eye.
Good luck, and again, I'm so sorry for your loss

[Heatheranne]

Hi aaapalmer,

I am sorry your frog passed . Your tank settings are right on. The leg stretching could be a sigh of low calcium level or perhaps discomfort from the wounds. Do you use calcium/vitamin D3 supplement with feedings? The wounds are impressive. Is their anything sharp or hog that could get hurt on or climb on? The pulling off of skin is a due to shedding. Shedding is normal but the spots are not. Sounds like he may have gotten a bacterial infection. Did you happen to take photos of the spots? The blood in the urine is likely a urinary infection. You could have a necropsy done by the vet of you want to know for sure the cause of all the ailments. How long did you have him for?

I would make a hospital tank for you other frog and remove him from the current one. Clean it out completely with a 5% bleach to water solution. Rinse thoroughly and then rinse again with double the amount of the prime in the water to beau realize any bleach. Be positive all bleach is gone. Then start the tank over. You'll also have to clean the decorations in the tank. Discard all old substrate.

I am not positive what the cause is, but this is the best way to avoid the other from getting sick. Monitor him closely. If any of the symptoms show in him he'll need treated. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have him preventatively treated with antibiotics, by a vet.

Again, I am sorry for your loss . It's so sad when we lose them.

[aaapalmer]

Thanks for the help guys...
What do you suggest we use as a hospital tank while we clean out the other one?
I assume you don't clean the corkboard and tree limbs, etc. Correct? Sorry... we've never had to clean the tank before.

And yes, we have been dusting the crickets with Calcium and vitamins.
We received two RETFs last week, so we've only had them for about 7 days.
I forgot to mention as well that the dead frog had normal coloration this morning. He did not look darker green with lighter patches like he did last night.

[Bolisnide]

Do you have a critter keeper? A cricket carrier? A large tupperware with a top, holes drilled through and filed down. Anything like that will suffice for a short period. Line the bottom with plain paper towels, dampened with treated water. Maybe a fake or real plant for security. Keep in a quiet and warm place.
I too lost a red-eye within a week of bringing him home. I still don't know why, but I think that sometimes they don't survive the stress of the move?
The injuries on your red-eye's feet could have been pre-existing? But check your tank to make sure there are no sharp points. Some artificial plants have wires that poke through the plastic, that would be something to look for.
It may be a good idea to do what Heather suggested and bring your remaining frog to a vet familiar with treating frogs. A fecal test is always a good idea... And maybe some sort of treatment with anti-biotics, just in case. But a vet would be able to determine if that's necessary.

[aaapalmer]

Okay... we'll get to work with all of the good advice. Thanks.
Does anyone know about what a typical vet visit like this costs... assuming I can find a vet in my area that treats frogs?
And as long as we're talking vets... how often do your frogs visit the vet? I know this is a dumb question, but is it a regular event, whenever something doesn't seem quite right, or only when something serious has occurred? Just curious. Thanks again. It's nice to have your support and help.

[Purrdoc]

I'm so sorry for your loss. It is hard to lose these guys, especially when you do not know why.

Look on the ARAV website to see if there is a vet in your area that treats frogs. Keep your little one in the fridge (not freezer) until you can get him in. If you can't do it on Saturday, then go ahead and freeze him. If you can't find a vet in your area that treats frogs, you should be able to ask any vet to send the body to the lab for you. Most labs that are used by vets will do this. I don't know the cost off hand, but it is well worth it, especially if you still have one and are considering getting another. I would be concerned about parasites, especially if it is a wild caught (most are unless it is specifically stated to be a captive bred juvenile). You can pm me if you need help getting the frog sent in, or if the vet you end up taking him to has questions about how or where to send him. I have an excellent exotics pathologist I use that I can put them in touch with as well.

[flybyferns]

Hi ,
So sorry
Try not to put any blame on yourself.
Heather has given you great instruction as to how to proceed from here

I believe this frog was sick when you got it ! I would aks for a refund.
Perhaps the injury on the foot was very small at the time and went un-noticed.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the "prime". Not sure meaning - I have no experience with it ---for its use with frogs.
(Aquariums - yes but not frogs)
May I respectfully suggest
"Aquatize"
Exo Terra : Aquatize / Terrarium Water Conditioner

8 little drops/gallon immediately de-chlorinates tap water.
Save your RO for cleaning the glass and misting the plants and helping to maintain the humidity

Lynn

[aaapalmer]

A few more questions... thanks again for all the help and support.
1. How do I clean the wood branches and tree bark cork board backing in my terrarium?
2. I checked the ARAV website and the closest vet is about an hour away. I may call them Monday and see if I can talk with the vet about our situation.
3. We bought our RETFs from reptilecity.com. Does anyone know anything about these guys? We went with them because their farm was close to us (just north of dallas) and they seemed to be a well-established business. They have a DOA policy for frogs but no guarantee beyond that. Is it worth calling them?
4. The artificial plants we have now have smaller leaves which the frogs really can't attach to. Should we replace them? We'll be inspecting them fro protruding wires which may have led to the feet wounds.
5. I read somewhere that uncovered eco-earth can often lead to impaction if the frogs accidentally ingest some while eating. Is this true? Should we cover the eco-earth with something?

Frog #2 has not been active for 48 hours. We're pulling him out today and cleaning the terrarium as soon as we can pull together all of the supplies.
I'm attaching a photo of our setup. The hose in the back connects to a home-made humidifier system that is controlled by our Zoo-med controller. Any comments are appreciated.
THANK YOU ALL.
-

[flybyferns]

<A few more questions... thanks again for all the help and support.
1. How do I clean the wood branches and tree bark cork board backing in my terrarium?>

you have to boil it or bake it , or both 180-200 for 20- half hour


<2. I checked the ARAV website and the closest vet is about an hour away. I may call them Monday and see if I can talk with the vet about our situation.>

This is a good idea.
or if this does not work out :
email and sent photos to Dr Frye:
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

He will get back to you !

<3. We bought our RETFs from reptilecity.com. Does anyone know anything about these guys? We went with them because their farm was close to us (just north of dallas) and they seemed to be a well-established business. They have a DOA policy for frogs but no guarantee beyond that. Is it worth calling them?>

I, personally, don't know anything about this company. However , if I were a breeder, I would want to know.

<4. The artificial plants we have now have smaller leaves which the frogs really can't attach to. Should we replace them? We'll be inspecting them fro protruding wires which may have led to the feet wounds.>

Your a re right! Any artificial plants need to be checked very carefully. . Since the leaves are " small ", perhaps consider setting these aside and replace new. Perhaps purchase a nice big pothos and begin to get it ready to use.

<5. I read somewhere that uncovered eco-earth can often lead to impaction if the frogs accidentally ingest some while eating. Is this true? Should we cover the eco-earth with something?>

No, covering the soil in not necessary. I'm afraid, though, the best advice its to break the tank down and clean it. If it did not have a background, a very diluted solution of water and bleach would be the way to go. The rinse well w/ tap wter / with de-chlorinated added to get rid of any bleach residue. Can you get the back ground out ---if so bake that too .

I don't use background...so I'm sorry.... I really don't know the best way to clean it if it's stuck on?? Perhaps someone else could help out ? If it is , did you use silicone to adhere it to the glass? I suppose I would soak it in the same very diluted bleach solution and rinse it for days in de-chlorinated water of which you could change a few times

<Frog #2 has not been active for 48 hours. We're pulling him out today and cleaning the terrarium as soon as we can pull together all of the supplies.
I'm attaching a photo of our setup. The hose in the back connects to a home-made humidifier system that is controlled by our Zoo-med controller. Any comments are appreciated.>

I agree---My advice is to transfer your frog to a temporary ( hospital/quarantine) tank. [ paper towel bottom/ dampened w de-chlorinated water/ a soaking dish w/ de-chlorinated water( changed daily)] . Continue to maintain proper temp and humidity. You could add a small branch of clean leaves that will help him to feel more safe. Here he can me monitored very closely. ( soaking/ activity/food intake/ poop ) You might consider bowl feeding him? If is is not accustomed to bowl feeding. feed on the ground and in a bowl until you are sure he has eaten out of the bowl.

Contacting a vet ... I'm sure you understand; is more important for this frog; even know you are curious as to what caused your other frog to die. Spending the $$ on treatment ( if needed) for this frog is what should be done. Treatment by a vet is typically done very broadly; meaning........ medication is chosen that will resolve more than one problem. It's kind of like the doctor not being quite sure why caused your sore throat-- so you're given an antibiotic that will get more than one bug. Medications for frogs are used for fungal and bacterial infections.


I hope this helps,Lynn

THANK YOU ALL.

[Purrdoc]

What I had to do with my tank to clean it (I had a cork background siliconed to the glass) was to get a hydrogen peroxide based cleaner (can't remember the name- Accel?) and then use a professional steamer on it.

Also, when you talk to the vet on Monday, ask them about reptilecity.com. Chances are, they probably know about them if they are relatively local to you. Unfortunately, at least in my experience (and the other members here can correct me- they have much more experience with this than I do), once you receive the frog, walk out the door, anything to remove it from the dealer or pet store's hands, there is no guarantee with a frog. A DOA with shipping that you have to prove you received the frog and it didn't sit in the box anywhere is about the only guarantee out there. I would call first thing in the morning, because they will most likely want to see the frog and evaluate it, see if there is anything else they can find or do, etc. If it is a bit of a drive, calling first thing will give you a better chance of getting an appointment at a time that is most convenient for you. Be sure to bring the deceased frog with you. Bring pictures of your vivarium as it was to show them as well. If you can get any stool that is less than 24 hours old, bring it along as well. You can put any samples you get between now and then in a baggie in the fridge (I know, that is more than 24 hours, but you do what you can with what you have).

Good luck and I wish the best for you and your frog. I hope you are able to figure out what is wrong and get him cared for.

[aaapalmer]

Got the frog in the hospital tank. He looked really good, though he just wanted to sleep. Completely tore down, cleaned, and sanitized the terrarium. I found one protruding wire from an artificial plant which may have been the cause of the foot injury.
Frog is now back in his clean home. He didn't seem interested in eating but I'm sure we stressed him good tonight. Froggie cam is up and monitoring to document any activity.
And we switched to a zoo-med dechlorinator that is made for frogs.
I have a friend who is a vet that I will see in church tomorrow. I will ask him if he sees frogs just to get his reaction. actually, he's a good guy and I'm sure he will be helpful.

[aaapalmer]

I talked with my vet friend today and it turns out that he worked with another vet in town who has experience with reptiles and amphibians. I will give her a call tomorrow.
The frog hasn't moved much since last night. He has not eaten or been in the water dish for several days now. We'll see what happens tonight.

[aaapalmer]

UPDATE: Well, Thomas (our remaining RETF) was active for several hours last night. He ate, pooped, peed, and soaked in his water dish. That's the good news. The "I'm not sure" news is that he has started "stretching" his hind legs the same way our other frog did a few days before he died. I am attaching a video of this behavior. Is this normal RETF behavior?

No news on the vet yet. I will call her tomorrow and get some advice. In the mean time, I'm happy that Thomas seems to be acting normally.

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FrogStretch.zip

[aaapalmer]

Wife just reported in... frog #2 is dead. After having the similar hind leg behavior exhibited by the first frog (see previous post), frog #2 died sometime this morning. Like the first one, there was blood on the glass. I'll investigate more when I get home from work.
It's pretty sad in our house today. But thanks for all of your help. When we regroup, I'd love to have some of you guide us through the procedure of how to do this right from the start. Obviously, there were things that we did wrong even though we tried to research extensively before we purchased these little guys and tried to make good decisions along the way.

[Bolisnide]

Wife just reported in... frog #2 is dead. After having the similar hind leg behavior exhibited by the first frog (see previous post), frog #2 died sometime this morning. Like the first one, there was blood on the glass. I'll investigate more when I get home from work.
It's pretty sad in our house today. But thanks for all of your help. When we regroup, I'd love to have some of you guide us through the procedure of how to do this right from the start. Obviously, there were things that we did wrong even though we tried to research extensively before we purchased these little guys and tried to make good decisions along the way.

I'm so sorry

Don't beat yourself up too much, it's very possible the frogs were sick before they were in your home....
Sadly, many of the best in the hobby have learned from mistakes, so do try again! They are wonderful little creatures.
I hope your kids are gonna be okay.