What do you think happened to our White's Tree Frog, please?

[KRN Frog Lover]

About three weeks ago we acquired 2 White's tree frogs from our local Petco. This evening, I found one of them dead. I am so sad and hoping to figure out what went wrong. Just this morning, the frog was sitting on the glass wall near the top of the terrarium and looked fine. Because this terrarium was a gift from Santa and we got the frogs shortly after that as a gift for our 6 year old son, we'd like to replace the tree frog with another of the same type before he notices. However, I don't want to kill another one. Feel awful. Any advice or suggestions are welcome.

Here's the info. that one member suggested posting for diagnostic purposes:

1-size of enclosure - 12 x 12 x 18 ZooMed terrarium, glass walls, front opening door, screen top, combo deep dome hood for day and nighttime lamps

2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?) Two White's tree frogs. The other frog was about 50% larger when we got them, they were in a terrarium there together. They maintained this approx. size diff.

3-humidity - typically around 70 - 80% though occasionally got down to 50%. We tried to mist glass and moss several times/day.

4-temp - about 80 deg F, day and night, for last week - 10 days. Before that, was going down to 70 deg F at night, but then I read this was too cold so switched red night time bulb from 50 to 75W. This morning, when I switched from night to day lamp, temp. was higher than usual, maybe close to 90 deg F but it was back to 80 deg within an hour or so.

5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish - We use tap water that has been sitting in a bucket for at least 24 hours, usually longer. We use this same water for the bottom of the terrarium, for misting and for the soaking dish. Two days ago, my husband changed 30 - 40% of the water that cycles from the bottom of the terrarium through the waterfall and down again.

6-materials used for substrate - Eco brick, covered with moss. Gravel and slate or flagstone at bottom/front

7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv - A local fish and exotic pet store called Aqua Imports put our set up together for us because we admired one in which they keep a couple of fancier frogs. The ZooMed terrarium includes the moss-covered Eco brick on some plastic egg crate that elevates that main area from the lower, front part that has a couple of inches of water at the bottom. A good sized piece of driftwood is oriented diagonally along the back. There are a couple of windy old sticks for sitting and decoration. A pump and plastic hose are used to create a small volume waterfall over the high end of the driftwood. An artificial plant sits atop that. There is a soaking dish, maybe 3 inches in diameter x 1/2 inch deep in the middle of the mossy ground area. Some ZooMed "bark" is used to cover the unsightly white plastic.

8-main food source - medium-sized live crickets, fed with gut loader (sm green cubes)

9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ) - none

10-lighting - ZooMed daylight, 75W and nighttime (red) bulbs, 75W

11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure - the lights above together with covering part of screen top w/ a book to keep most of the heat in while still leaving some open for ventiliation

12-when is the last time he ate - not sure, have been putting in 2 - 4 crickets/day, most days

13-have you found poop lately - yes, there is poop on the glass walls of the terrarium

14-a pic would be great ( including the frog ) any little cell phone pic is fine - he's dead now, so picture of him would be very unpleasant. Found him floating in the marshy area under the little waterfall. He's lost some of his color and eyes are foggy. Here are pics of the set-up.

15- how old is the frog - don't know; obtained from PetCo

16-how long have you owned him - about 3 weeks

17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred - captive bred

18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats - only the crickets

19- about how often the frog is handled - never. Terrarium is located in my 6 year old son's room (was his Christmas present from Santa). My family of four each peer into it several times a day but we have never handled the frogs.

20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area - very low traffic. Corner of son's bedroom, downstairs, away from main living area.

[Bdimas]

Sorry for your loss... The main things that caught my eye were your substrate. You should remove your moss, gravel, and bark. Those three things can be easily swallowed and cause impaction. That may or may not be the cause of your frogs passing, it could also be the frog was sick when you bought it.

[KRN Frog Lover]

Thanks, Bdimas. Here are 2 pictures of the set-up and the remaining larger White's tree frog. (My son named her Frogalina. Froggy is the one who died.) The first one shows the main "living area". The second one is from further back to show where the water and gravel are down at the bottom. (Sorry they are rotated counterclockwise. I don't know why or how to fix.)

Since it was put together by this pet store that has beautiful vivariums of all types, I assumed they knew what they were doing. They have a beautiful naturalistic semi-aquatic frog terrarium of their own for a pair of poison dart frogs. It was after seeing this that my husband and I, who doubted our ability to construct one, asked them to do it for us.

After seeing these, do you still think we need to make changes?

[Bdimas]

Its a bit hard to see from the pictures. Your gravel looks to be only on the bottom of your water which is fine. I really can't tell if your moss is long fiber or not. Pillow moss should be fine, long fiber sphagnum can be swallowed. I also cannot see your bark. I would remove the bark if your frog can get to it. Your eco brick is a great substrate. I use that too.

[Bdimas]

After looking more closely you have what appears to be dead pillow moss. That's perfectly fine. You may also want to cover your top with some plastic to help with the humidity. Plastic wrap is a quick , cheap fix.

[KRN Frog Lover]

Yeah, it's pillow moss (not sphagnum). I'm bummed that it turned brown. It doesn't seem to be decaying though.
Thanks for the tip on the plastic wrap.
Yeah, there is very little gravel except for in the bottom, where the water is.
The "bark" I referred to is actually a sheet of Zoo Med's Cork Tile Background, which just improved the look of the terrarium, covering up the white plastic "egg crate" stuff that they used to build the raised area.

So what do you think did in the other frog? Do you think it was the water change? Or do you think the bigger one was getting all of the crickets?

[Bdimas]

In time that moss may come back to life. I doubt the water killed it, and doubt your other frog ate all the crickets since Wtf's are slow eaters. It could have been sick when you bought it and it never ate. Make sure your current frogs poop is solid and not runny. I would also treat your water with some dechlorinator even though you guys let it sit for a couple days.

[flybyferns]

Hello KRN,
I have only about 5 minutes before I leave for work. I lust wanted to address the dusting. He MUST have his crickets dusted.

vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ) - none

Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
Foods Line

Since there has not been any dusting. I would dust calcium daily for a few weeks, and vits at least bi weekly for now -- to help replenish the loss that has likely occurred.

Water: He needs a bigger soaking dish. Cleaned daily w/ hot tap water and re-filled w/ dechlorinated water.

So sorry I don't have more time right now.
I 'll check in later. You have good people - here- helping you !!!

If the other frog was sick ( as in a contagious illness ) ----I would seriously consider breaking down the entire tank and sterilize it. Put him on plain paper towel substrate bottom w/ de-chlorinated water for now. This way his health , eating, and poop can be monitored closely.
I know what a pain. But it's best, in my opinion.

Read as many care sheets as you possibly can.
Lynn

[helm96]

OK so as Lynn said Calcium and Vits. Very important, especially cause you do not know if the pet store was doing this so there could be a HUGE deficiency if they have never done this. Follow the plan that Lynn described above.

As far as Temps, I keep mine at about 76 during the day and about 72 at night. This helps to better simulate the environment that they come from.

With humidity, Whites do not need the humidity as high as say a RETF. I have had mine for the past 2 years between 60 and 70% and they are happy as clams. Anything above 80% for extended times can cause respitory issues with the frog, plus it also invites the growth of bacteria that can be unhealthy for the frog.

Whites Tree Frogs are a bigger breed of tree frog and as they approach full size you will want to consider a bigger enclosure. The 12 x 12 x 18 that you have is about roughly 11 gallons. With Whites I would say in my opinion 10 gallons per WTF. I have a 18 x 18 x 24 and my 2 Whites utilize every inch of it. With tree frogs the one thing to remember is taller is always better.

I am not trying to sound preachy or to come across rude, these are just my opinions and experiences over the course of owning my little kiddos. I am sure more people will chime in and add to what I have said or missed. I hope that Frogalina stays healthy, Whites are so much fun to own and they have so much personality. Good Luck!

[KRN Frog Lover]

Bdimas, Lynn and Will,
Sincere thanks to all of you for your advice. We are going to try all of these suggestions. Thank you very much. I look forward to continuing to learn from all of you.

Kirsten

[Bdimas]

No problem. I'm glad everyone was a help. Please keep us updated and have fun along the way.

[flybyferns]

Bdimas, Lynn and Will,
Sincere thanks to all of you for your advice. We are going to try all of these suggestions. Thank you very much. I look forward to continuing to learn from all of you.

Kirsten

Kristen,
No problem, happy to help.
Keep us posted.
Lynn