Something for Future Waxy Monkey Tree Frog Owners to Consider

[Terrarium Supplies]

Hi Helios, there was no malicious intent in my reply to your original post. Just a general caution as we as keepers have so much more still to learn about animals in captivity. It is good that your brought your case to the public domain however we have to flip the coin and reveal both sides.

Based on my experience with sauvagii, they have many (vast!) amount of eggs. Going back to evolution, nature has its way. There are bound to be faults in the line, even when reaching adulthood. Just like us Humans, Cancers, Liver Disease, Heart Defects... the list goes on. This applies to all Animalia, Plantae and all living, breathing organisms.

To think that all animals put into captivity under the right conditions, fed the correct food source and generally doing everything right is one of the biggest misconceptions in our hobby. Sometimes nature just has its way and unless (I say this with utter sadness) your frog was stripped down and fully examined, we are simply left scratching our heads.

[Helios]

Oh totally, I know! I just thought I'd give more detail about the whole range of what we looked at with my frog, because I realized after my first post I hadn't been very thorough in describing the situation and I wanted to be clear about the fact that I knew I had no scientific ground to stand on minus the fact that they tend to live in social groups. I'm really interested in speices that are less extensively known, so hopefully discussions like this one can ultimately aid in the right people asking the right questions to get those answers. And I totally agree, there could have been something not quite right with my frog from the get go and had I been thinking I would have pursued having his remains examined.

[Terrarium Supplies]

I think it would be far to say that 'stress' is widely misinterpreted. In fact I would go as far to say that I do not like the term 'stress'. There is always an underplaying factor of which I believe and from my experience, is more often than not the route of the cause. 'Stress' is and always will be a general statement. It is very easy for one to say that 'stress' killed my pet. One has to questions exactly what 'stress' is?

I'm just glad this has not left a sour taste in your mouth. I would advise you to pick yourself up, then go out and get yourself a small group of CB sauvagii. Enjoy them, learn from them and keep moving forward, documenting your methods to empower your knowledge and of course to help others alike. I would be ecstatic if you came back in a few months with some juicy pics of your new brood!

Chin up Helios, lighting never strikes twice.

[Helios]

Very true, it's easy to label stress as the cause rather then identify it as a force (instinctual, emotional, or whatever the case may be), which triggers a biological response or as you said underlies one. Oh for sure, I look forward to owning waxys again--as soon as I have space for a tank suited to keeping three or four I'll be at it again!

[flybyferns]

Hi Helios and all that may stumble upon this long post,

Here’s my 2 cents on stress ( yes stress) on our wild caught and captive bred frogs. I would really like to spend more time on this ---but my regular ‘responsibilities” are calling me. This is based on my personal experiences. Here are a few , simple, day-to-day things I see – too often ! Having said that, there is so, so, much more that has an impact on why people may or may not be able to care for them properly; well beyond the scope of this, my post. It’s human nature!

What goes into keeping our frogs healthy and ‘stress’ free is “more than what meets the eye.”
One may go to a show, a pet sore, an expo, and buy a frog, having NEVER read one single piece of information regarding its care. “How hard could it be ? It’s just a frog. It’s only $ 6.99. Look !, they have 10 in that tank; I’ll get five. They will keep each other company. “ Then there is the purchase of the enclosure. Yikes $$$ Often, this ends up being the improper size and orientation.

Then, with the very best intentions, there are most of us that buy them and often think our good care will be the end to their struggles? We pour over care sheets and obsess with trying to make things perfect, because we love them. Sadly, the problem only starts here as many sold in the pet trade and expos are anything but healthy. How many time have we read on FF -of a respected member- losing a frog after trying so hard to keep it healthy !!!

Consider the massive amount of other variables that , sadly, lead to their demise.
Add to this list the massive amount of often conflicting information to do so properly! I’m sure I’ve left some out.
Below ....commonly found list of issues:
-Improperly maintained humidity levels
-Poorly or improperly kept water sources
-Improper temperatures
-Improper lighting (day/night cycles, UVA/B when required)
-Wrong choice of suitable and safe substrate (depth, type etc).
-Poor cleaning and disinfecting of the enclosure, substrate, and furnishings
-Inconsistent monitoring of equipment need to maintain the enclosure
-Improper maintenance and size of feeders
-The improper use of and lack of the use of calcium /nutritional supplements
-Irregular observation of the frog that leads to missing the detection and early signs of stress or (ill health) which delays prompt intervention.
-Lack of prompt intervention by a qualified herp vet.

Here are some ‘scientific ‘articles regard the effect of stress on the health of frogs. I spend an enormous amount of time researching how stress impacts the immune systems of frogs which leads to their ill health.

It’s quite easy to find this information. Often, it can be complicated. Try to enjoy it anyway ! Try to read through. Every time you might read a ‘scientific research article’ you will come away with having learned something new. It’s never wasted time ! If it’s not specific to the topic you intended, simply move on.

Stress in the wild: about the negative effect of temperature changes -article below
<One of the major questions in ecology is how environmental factors influence the dynamics of parasitism and disease in natural populations. A case in point is that environmental factors have been implicated in the emergence of new and more severe amphibian diseases>
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/...al_Ecology.pdf

Stress, over a frog’s lifespan , seems to hsve an impact on their immune system and their overall nutritional status as well. It's not clear how this effect of stress can may make them sick, however. We need to continue to support our passionate scientists! For example, like with humans, stress activates parts of the immune system can which cause inflammation in the body. “Inflammation in the body”; sounds simple, right! It’s not. This is not merely the inflammation ( or swelling) we see if we have an injury. It is related to an inflammatory process in the body that leads to diseases. In humans this would be major diseases like, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer.

Good research articles:
ScienceDirect.com - Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Molecular & Integrative Physiology - Roles of stress hormones in food intake regulation in anuran amphibians throughout the life cycle

http://www.mcdb.lsa.umich.edu/labs/d.../CBP141381.pdf

In captivity, are frogs have to adjust to enormous obstacles from the day when they are born in captivity:

Neuroendocrine-immune system interactions in amphibians - Springer

Some others:
searched words <“Sources of stress in captive frogs “
Oh ! Thank goodness for the www.

ScienceDirect.com - Applied Animal Behaviour Science - Sources of stress in captivity

Here is a link to articles on stress, specifically, in captive amphibians… Complements of Google:

constant stress in captive amphibians - Google Scholar

Sorry for the lengthy post.
So, on the ‘other side of the coin’, Helios-Keep trying !!!!! Like you are planning to do !!!!!

I believe we should all keep trying, and, NEVER underestimate the important impact we ( non-scientists) have on the ongoing knowledge and proper husbandry of our captive friends ! We matter and WE can make a difference !

My mission: I leave the wild ones there and –try very hard - to give the captive bred frogs a great home !

My FF quote :
>But if you tame me,
then we shall meet each other.
To me, you will be unique in all the world.
To you , I shall be unique in all the world.
You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.>

Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Little Prince" chapter 21

Lynn