HELP! Bullfrog gone completely brown, no green!

[Gnag the nameless]

Here, this is the second time I've posted this [I posted it in a different part of the forum earlier] but I want some help. You'll see why as you read this thread, but first, please read the description. By the way, my frogs have been in this tank since Jan 5th, 2013. Their 20 Gallon before [when they were froglets] was filled with plants, and frog moss on the land area. Anyways, even if you don't own a bullfrog, I need all the advice I can get:

Gnag the Nameless [Guh-nagg]:
3 inches long whilst sitting.
Green, black spotted, white chin and underbelly
Female
Estimated age: 10 months to 1 1/4 years old

Bumpy Digtoad:
2.4 inches long whilst sitting.
Green, black spotted, white chin and underbelly
Female
Estimated age: 8 months to 1 year old

Setup: 30 Gallon [YES! I know it is too small! I am getting a 55 Gallon soon, maybe an 100 Gallon after that if possible and when the time comes, giving away one frog (Most likely Bumpy, when she is larger) to a trusted friend of mine who also is an animal lover, and owns a man-made pond. Don't maul my post with anger and insults!]

Gravel on bottom of water section, water 3 inches above gravel, ozonated [Pure Spring water] store-bought water. 1/3 of tank is made up of land connected to a piece of Malaysian wood, which forms a partially underwater cave with three exits. Fake water reeds in water and fake hanging plants around land area. Fluval U2 underwater filter right bottom corner, fully functioning [In water]. Finally, a proper lid, and a background on the back of the tank.


Now, for the past 5 days, Gnag's skin has turned brown, and she has not been out, swimming around, as usual. [At least, not in the early hours of the night. Possibly when I'm asleep, I haven't checked then, so it's possible she was out then.]. Bumpy seems fine, hiding as usual, her skin a dark green, as usual. Anyways, Gnag's skin has a been an ugly brown. Her nose appears to be bluish. When I first saw this, I quickly checked for the gooey skin around the neck meaning Chytrid. None of that, luckily, neither any peeling of skin, or odd marks on her, neither milky eyes. I've had them for 4 months, and I haven't seen any signs of Chytrid close to me [I live on the outskirts of Vancouver, past Coquitlam]. Out of the time at my lake where I caught these frogs, I've only seen one dead frog, a massive adult. She's been eating, which is good. I feed her a cricket covered with calcium 3 days ago. I've fed her 3 mealworms every other day, along with the crickets. However, Neither I have not done a Ph or Ammonia check, though I have refreshed the water [Pure spring water, store-bought] recently. My friend says her coloration is due to the fact it's not the breeding season, or because she could be pregnant [I am unsure of Bumpy's gender, as he/she is smaller and has a narrower nose, but has the 'ear' the same size as his/her eye]. I am tempted to take them to a Vet soon, possibly even tomorrow. But please, I have spent over 500$ on these frogs. I do NOT want them to die now, it'd break my heart and I'd probably never have frogs again. Please, help as soon as possible!

[GrifTheGreat]

Are they eating and activity is normal? Do you have a UVB light?

Before you take them to a Vet you may want to collect a fecal sample from both frogs and place each sample in a seperate bag with a damp cotton ball dampened with spring water. Then place the samples in the fridge so any parasites or bacteria will be preserved intact.

Post pictures of the frogs and their setup.

[Gnag the nameless]

Thank you SO much for commentating, Grif! I needed someone like you to help out. As for the frogs, it's not Bumpy who's ill. She seems absolutely fine to me. As for the lamp, no, I am getting one tomorrow. I was planning to anyways. As for the activity, she's eating fine, but Gnag is not swimming and she's spending a lot of time in the rock cave which is mostly on land.

Yes, they are eating fine. The reason Gnag is in the corner in the picture is because I just finished the tank that day. Both frogs were distraught. The tank is much bigger than it looks, and also, I rarely have the light that bright these days. I'll post some pictures of Gnag, and their setup. It's kind've crude, but it's a work in progress:



I'll post a picture or pictures of Gnag in a few minutes.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thank you SO much for commentating, Grif! I needed someone like you to help out. As for the frogs, it's not Bumpy who's ill. She seems absolutely fine to me. As for the lamp, no, I am getting one tomorrow. I was planning to anyways. As for the activity, she's eating fine, but Gnag is not swimming and she's spending a lot of time in the rock cave which is mostly on land.

Yes, they are eating fine. The reason Gnag is in the corner in the picture is because I just finished the tank that day. Both frogs were distraught. The tank is much bigger than it looks, and also, I rarely have the light that bright these days. I'll post some pictures of Gnag, and their setup. It's kind've crude, but it's a work in progress:



I'll post a picture or pictures of Gnag in a few minutes.

Sounds like stress if she is trying to hide. Cover both ends of the tank with a background as well to reduce stress.

I need to see the discolored nose as well.

[Gnag the nameless]

Alright, here's photo's of her. They are very bad photo's, my hands were shaking a bit, and I couldn't find a good spot to place the camera. You may have to squint. Also, I've noticed the nose only looks discolored underwater. Alright, here the photo's are, Grif. Thank you so much for all of this! I really care about my frogs, and I'd run 10 miles, non-stop, just to get them crickets!




And here she is in her 20G with Bumpy, taken about a month ago. Bumpy still looks as she does in this photo:

[Gnag the nameless]

If I accidentally didn't reply to your earlier post, and just clicked "Reply to thread" here is a reply. Look at the above comment.

[GrifTheGreat]

I don't really see anything wrong in the bottom pic with the two together. It may just be stress coloring or due to a mood change.

[Gnag the nameless]

Oh, thank you so much Grif! I was freaking out! I thought it could be a bacterial fungus, or some kind of disease, even though their environment is really clean. Quick note: The 20G photo is from about a month ago, and she was that exact same color when I first put her in the 30G. As for the mood, I've been handling her [with gloves] recently, checking for any bad signs on her body, so that might scare her, as well as the fact that I do shine a light in the underwater cave entrance when searching for the frogs, and that could be a major factor. Should I add more hiding spots? By the way, they did have frog moss in the earlier environment, so that could be a factor. Also, how could I get her to change back to green? I just feel bad when I see her a brown color. And yes, I will buy the UV light tomorrow, and also get more wallpaper for the sides. But, should I still take her feces for a check, or take her to a vet? And also, if her color doesn't change, what might I do then?

[Heatheranne]

Hi! Ill try to help you figure this out.

Okay, first, lets go back to basics... You used bottled spring water? Are the rocks from outdoors and did you boil them first if they were, and/or rinse them if they were store bought?

They were both of normal color before entering the new tank?

Did you clean the tank with any chemicals or soaps?

Frogs often turn 'brown' when they are stressed or when trying to blend into their surroundings, or both. I can not see the nose discoloration in the photo. Can you get a nice clear photo of the nose without disturbing him too much?

Try giving them a cave. You can get nice ones from the aquarium sections at pet stores. Get a nice smooth one as they sometimes dive quite crazily. Be sure to rinse it in hot water, followed by a spring water or dechlorinated water rinse before placing it into their home.

They may need some water plants to hide amongst. Be sure to rinse those also. I would only use aquarium bought. Mine has water lettuce. He loves to hide between the plants.

In your other thread I saw that you were worried about water movement or noise. They will get use to the sound of a nice waterfall. Mine sits right under his and lets the water fall over him .

What is the temp in your water?

If you don't mind the calcium spots on the glass from him splashing about and diving, here is a picture of my Bully's home...


Sorry the pictures aren't great. Wasn't planning on taking any this evening or I'd have cleaned up the glass. I was laying in bed when I read this.

Get back to me when you can and I'll answer back again too.

I have a feeling your frog is just adjusting to the new home, but let's run through the questions just in case. Try not to worry.

If you get a UVB light, put it only on one end for now.

[GrifTheGreat]

Heather has offered solid advice as well. Answer her questions and she will be able to assist you further.
Good luck

[Gnag the nameless]

Thanks for all the help guys! I really appreciate it . Alright, Heather, here are my answers:

Bottled Spring water, and I'm ashamed to say I did get the rocks from outside, but I didn't boil them; I washed with with hot [Steaming, but not boiling] water and then dried them thoroughly, which took roughly 6 hours for them all.

Yep, both nice and green like in the photo of them in the 20G. The degrading of Gnag's coloration happened over about a week.

I'm a bit startled to say they've got no sunlight, but the light in my room is a CFL, and I do have a few CFL's lying around. Could those be used temporarily? Also, where would I buy earthworms? I don't really want to get them from the ground, they could contain diseases.

I got the tank on Craigslist, and while I was getting supplies, it sat around the house for about 2 weeks. Before my frogs were in it, the previous owner of the tank had Firebelly Toads in it. [Wanna here something pretty crazy? My friend is getting a 25G on Craigslist for 15$ soon! No leaks! I got my 30G for 35$, and there's been no leaks at all! Amazingly good deals, eh?]

That's what my friend says it could be; the only place other than the new cave to hide in is the log. And as for the nose, I can only see the problem when it's underwater, with a kind've blueish light, so I'm not sure it's too much of an issue... I can't even see it now. If you insist, then I will. I've no right to complain, you're only helping my frogs. I just don't want to scare Gnag more.

Water plants, gotcha. I'm heading down to the pet store tomorrow to get the UV light, and wallpaper, so I'll get the water plants then as well, and maybe a log to place in the water? Either way, I just want my hoppers to be out and swimming happily once more.

That's a big relief, I was worried about the filter scaring them

Ah, don't worry. The pictures I took were not the best, either.

As for the temp, let me check... a bit on the cold side, I would estimate... between +10 - 0 Celsius. I'm embarrassed to tell you that I didn't get a thermometer... that's something I'll go pick up tomorrow as well.

Yeah, I'll try not to worry. I'm really new to keeping frogs, these are my first, actually, of any kind of reptile or amphibian, so learning from experts is the best way to go. I definitely want to own frogs when I'm older [Especially Pacmans]. Here's one little note, I'm wondering if it's a plausible idea: My friend [He's getting a 25G soon, as previously mentioned], who lives on a farm and has been living around frogs and newts his whole life [He has 3 pet newts, actually] suggested that 1. [As you also suggested] Gnag is simply blending in 2. It's not mating season, so her coloration will not be as bright. Could the latter be a possible explanation?

Anyways, thanks for all the help. I always say, the best way to learn is from experts who know what they're doing, and are very skilled in the practice [In this case, keeping frogs.] As you might be able to tell, I'm obsessed with my frogs. They're all I talk about these days, no matter who I'm with or where I am, so you can imagine how much I care about them. My life's become much happier ever since I got these frogs and it's great to have other people care about them, too.

[Heatheranne]

Okay...

Bottled spring water is fine.

The rocks...I'm not sure how clean they'd get with hot rinsing. Usually boiling for 30 minutes will kill any parasites or insects. Some people use a 5 % bleach solution to soak int and then rinse thoroughly, followed by another heavily dechlorinated rinse.

Okay, so within the week the color has changed...so that means one of a few things...stress from the move and adjusting to the new home which is very common, contamination from the decor, contamination from the tank.

The lighting...it is good for them to have a day/night schedule as they would in the wild. No specific lighting is required if your calcium supplement has vitamin D3 in it. Is there light in the room they're in from a lamp or ceiling light? Sometimes keeping a mild amount of light on vs. a super bright light in the first few weeks can lessen stress.

Earthworms and night crawlers can be purchased at the pet store or even Walmart, if you have one. They are stored in the refrigerator, so you may have to ask for them. Just be sure to ask that there are no dyes or scents added to them. When people but them for fishing there are sometimes chemicals added to them to attract the fish, which can be poisonous. Canada has the best night crawlers by the way. I get mine from Petsmart and they're nice and plump. I actually have to cut them to size for my smaller frogs. Kinda gross, but it works. If you have to cut yours, cut the pieces from the lighter end of the worm, not the dark/mouth end. They can seal off the cut and regenerate new ends, therefore live longer when cut from the back end. Just a tip. You are right, feeding outdoor worms and insects is not recommended due to possible parasites and possible fertilizer contamination.

Good deals on the tanks. Be sure to wash them out with either the bleach solution, regular rinse, and dechlorinating rinse, or with vinegar and a regular rinse, and a dechlorinated rinse or spring water rinse. It is imperative that you do the dechlorinating rinse after using bleach, even diluted, to be safe.

Petco, if you have one, is also having their $1 per gallon sale until January 19th. This means you can get a 55 us gallon tank for $55. I'm not sure if you have that there too.

If you can get a photo of the nose without stressing your frog more, please do, otherwise just keep a close eye on it. Though, if hurt or infected, it may need vet care.

Water temp is important to know. American bullfrogs can tolerate cool temps. They prefer spring and summer temps most though. I keep mine at about 75 degrees F, which is about 17.77'C. They can tolerate 10'C (50'F), but they'll be less active and may eat less. You can get an aquarium heater for under/between the rocks or an overhead lamp heater for on top of a metal screen lid. Be sure the aquarium heater is in the water before turning it on and be sure it is not hot to the touch from within the water. Mine is between gravel layers so he will not burn himself on it. You can get standard ones and adjustable ones that you can set the temp for.

They could change color due to breeding season, though its likely stress.

I think I got all of the questions/answers. If not, I'll add them on.

Have a good night. Time for me to close my eyes, but I'll be back on tomorrow.

[Heatheranne]

Oh yeah...you are amongst a bunch of frog fanatics...we love them too .

[Gnag the nameless]

I thought so. We can get 10 liter jugs of water over here for a really cheap price too. I used to collect rainwater for 'em, but it takes a lot of time unless there are heavy rainfalls. [You may be shocked by this] In my area, we don't get much snow either, so I rely on the bottled spring water.

When they were in the 20G, I'd clean it out with 5% bleach, though I'm not sure what I'll do with the 30G. I'm pretty short for a teen, and neither am I the weight-lifting kind, so I can't really carry the tank outside to be cleaned. Any ideas?

I don't think that it's contamination [It could just be me trying to hide the possibility, too] because it would've affected Bumpy as well, and she seems fine to me. Probably just stress, because Gnag had really adapted to the last tank. Bumpy didn't like it much, actually, she'd hide all day.

Well, the light for my room is a fluorescent CFL, 100 watt. I can't stand it [I'm replacing it soon, when I get the time or when I remember to] so a small UV lamp for the tank will be what I can go with. I prefer a darker room, I'm a bit of a night owl.

Canada has the best nightcrawlers? Excellent! Also, if my hoppers get as big as your hopper, can I feed them goldfish and guppies instead of mice? I've already spoken to my parents on the matter, and they're repulsed by the idea of feeding mice, even frozen or pinkies to my frogs.

I know, right? I got the cabinet for an amazing price too, 20$, so in total, 55$. I saw the exact same deal at Petcetera, 30G tank and cabinet, and guess how much it was? 600$! And I got mine for 55$! And that Petco deal sounds good. My friends are all pet owners [One of my friends family runs an animal shelter] and an opportunity like that... wow, I've got to ask my friends if they know of a Petco around!

Alright. I always do keep a close eye on my frogs, anyways, so I'll tell the forum if anything occurs. I just fear that Gnag may die of stress, I've heard of that happening to frogs.

The heater is a good idea. If it's expensive, I'll just keep my room warm. It's already a warm spot in the house, which is good.

Yeah, my friend knows quite a bit about animals. He actually caught the frogs for me. That was the best B-day present I've ever had

Yep, I can't think of anymore. Again, thanks for spending your time helping another frog fanatic. I'll update this thread if anything new happens, and send you some pictures when Gnag is good and green again. I'll get the UV light, water plants, thermometer and possibly the water heater tomorrow. Goodnight!

[UncleChester]

I thought so. We can get 10 liter jugs of water over here for a really cheap price too. I used to collect rainwater for 'em, but it takes a lot of time unless there are heavy rainfalls. [You may be shocked by this] In my area, we don't get much snow either, so I rely on the bottled spring water.

If you live in a house, get a rain barrel and put it under the downspout. You live in Vancouver...you will collect more water than you can use, especially with spring around the corner.

When they were in the 20G, I'd clean it out with 5% bleach, though I'm not sure what I'll do with the 30G. I'm pretty short for a teen, and neither am I the weight-lifting kind, so I can't really carry the tank outside to be cleaned. Any ideas?

You can siphon the water out with a hose and remove it one manageable bucket at a time.

Canada has the best nightcrawlers? Excellent! Also, if my hoppers get as big as your hopper, can I feed them goldfish and guppies instead of mice? I've already spoken to my parents on the matter, and they're repulsed by the idea of feeding mice, even frozen or pinkies to my frogs.

Heather is probably referring to 'Canadian Nightcrawlers', Lumbricus terrestris, which ironically aren't actually even native to Canada at all. They're common in bait shops, but I dig mine up from chemical free areas. Here was a thread with some responses by people who know way more than me about http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...ght-foods.html

Usually stuff with bones is avoided as feeders for frogs, fish from stores can be of questionable health. Of course, in the wild a bullfrogs are well known for eating just about anything it can get, including birds.

[Heatheranne]

Guppies are fine if you know the source is clean, or do like I do and breed them yourself. Goldfish are not recommended as they tend to have parasites more often than other fish. I can't do nice either...just can't bring myself to do it, even frozen. I do, however, feed mine freshly molted dubia roaches and he loves them. I'm not sure if breeding and housing roaches is legal in Canada though. You'd have to check that out first.

[UncleChester]

I'm not sure if breeding and housing roaches is legal in Canada though. You'd have to check that out first.

Sadly, we're not allowed to keep roaches in Canada outside of licensed zoos or exhibits. I believe the only exception is the German cockroach, Blatella germanica, which no one in their right mind would knowingly bring into their home.

[Gnag the nameless]

Great news! Last night, Gnag was up and swimming about like normal, alongside Bumpy ! And this morning, I saw her eat three crickets, not even mentioning the ones I didn't see her eat. The only thing peculiar about her other than her coloring was that she was a bit more shy than usual. But she was eating viciously [As is normal]! I think you are right, and that she is just adapting to her new home. At around 3-7 PM I'll go get the water plants, UV light, thermometer, more wallpaper, and possibly the water heater.


As for the nightcrawlers and guppies, I know where to get guppies, and the ones there usually seem healthy. I'll examine them either way, if they look bad, I can put them in my spare 20G, or get a 10G for 'em to breed in, along with a filter, gravel, plants, etc. I searched up Lumbricus terrestris and I see those everywhere! Whenever it rains, those come up, and they're bountiful! I always assumed they were regular earthworms. That's useful, next time it rains, I'll see if I can find any, though I'll probably stick to store-bought nightcrawlers.


I don't think Roaches are legal here, I've never seen one as a pet or otherwise except in an aquarium. I was planning on getting some kind of invertebrate to put in a 10G or smaller and Roaches were an interest, but I couldn't find any. I know this is off-topic, but any suggestions? I want something that's entertaining, or interesting, and I'll tell you why: my parents often bring guests over, and those guests bring little kids, and I'm always defending my frogs, trying to stop the little kids from poking the glass, turning on the main light in my room, handling the crickets, and worst of all, attempting to reach in and pick up a frog though that only occurred once, when I wasn't supervising for a few seconds. Luckily, those frogs [Especially Bumpy] are fast, I even have difficulty getting them when doing physical examinations [Bumpy is an amazing hider, and she's very fast too. I once spent 30 minutes searching for her in the 20G.] so, any low-maintenance but interesting pet suggestions would be nice. Just something to keep any guests entertained and off my frogs. I was thinking about a crayfish [AKA Crawfish] as a nice little pet [maybe not little, but even so]. I know where I can catch a few, and they're relatively easy to catch from my experience.

[Heatheranne]

Haha! They crayfish would teach them to not reach in the tanks anymore, lol! Ouch! Crayfish are actually pretty neat. I love how they create their own exhibits with the decor. They're great little remodelers.

Maybe turn off their lights when the kids come over and have a small box of games or toys to play with or pop in some good kid movies?

[Gnag the nameless]

Yeah, I'll definitely go for a crayfish

Yes, I usually give them some Lego. That works sometimes. I'll try the pop+movies, though.