Atelopus hoogmoedi - Vivarium

[clownonfire]

Hi all,

I will be documenting the build of the new Atelopus spumarius vivarium I started building. I will be using material I already own, up to the 29 gallon tank I have lying around (29*18*13).

Basically, the backdrop will be pieces of bark I have picked up this weekend on the mountain. I have of course cooked the wood (1 hour at 200 Celsius).

There will be a drainage layer made of hydro balls, and a closed section with a false bottom for a pond with running water. This section will be separated by a piece of glass. Since clean water is essential I hear for these toads, I will use a layer of hydro balls, and will use river rocks up to the level of the pond. There will be pieces of sticks of about 6 inches that will be inserted vertically here and there in the pond. I will also be using a water filter which will be closed off using egg crates, and which will double up as the water stream.

As for plants, I still don't know. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Eric

[clownonfire]

As there are little information on Atolepus spumarius out there, I contacted Ed Kowalski on Dendroboard as he has been working with them for years. Pertaining on the vivarium, eher are what he suggested. I hope this can be useful to some (

"Hi Eric,

I would not house them in an enclosure that has a water feature unless you were actively attempting to breed them at that moment. This species follows the typical Atelopus pattern where they live some distance from water until they are ready to breed. If you keep them in an enclosure with a water feature, then you are going to encourage them to set-up territories and encourages aggression.

You need several plants with leaves large and strong enough to perch on as they will climb up at night to sleep. If you don't have enough perches, you will hear territorial calls as one toad climbs on the leaf claimed by another.

I would house them in an enclosure similar to tinctorius with more air flow (I kept then in a tank with a screen lid with one half covered with glass for a number of years.

The current ratios of males to females is running close to 25-30 to 1. Good luck with them. the ones that I have seen so far all have good weight so you shouldn't have to worry about refeeding syndrome with them.

Ed"

So there you go. No more water feature for me.

[5280]

Eric, incredibly helpful thread. I was worried about the running water feature myself and stressing about how I would successfully house these guys. I'm gonna pass on a water feature as well now. I don't mean to hijack your thread, just want to say thanks for posting this. Keep us posted on your viv build, maybe we'll compare pictures when we're both done.

Also, have you decided on any plants to use, I'm struggling with that as well. Good luck man.

[clownonfire]

Eric, incredibly helpful thread. I was worried about the running water feature myself and stressing about how I would successfully house these guys. I'm gonna pass on a water feature as well now. I don't mean to hijack your thread, just want to say thanks for posting this. Keep us posted on your viv build, maybe we'll compare pictures when we're both done.

Also, have you decided on any plants to use, I'm struggling with that as well. Good luck man.

By all means, if you have anything to add, suggestions and ideas, feel free to hijack this thread as much as you want.

As for plants, I will add a few Alocasia and Philodendron to make sure they have leaves to perch on. I'll make sure to add a few climbers too like ficus pumilia. I still am looking for 1-2 more ideas... Anyone?

[5280]

Hey Eric, what temp and humidity range are you going to keep your guys at???

[clownonfire]

Through the roof!

Around 90%.

Tonight, I added bark to the vivarium. I tried sticking it with silicone, but as the bark was too uneven, it was hard to stick a large surface on the glass.

So I reverted to foam. And foam worked.

EDIT: I've been suggested to perhaps lower the humidity. It was hinted that 65-85% could be a better range.

[clownonfire]

I have received the toads today. They will be at my friend's house until May 17th. I have been trying to find proper information for the tank. People on DB have been helpful, thank you. And I was invited on a Facebook group on the Atelopus spumarius by one of their mod so I can have accurate info on the best environment. Here's info I'd like to share back.

Big thanks again to Ed Kowalski and Shawn Harrington.

On humidity:

Ed: "You can have decent air flow and still have a decent relative humidity. I'm not sure what people keep thier tintorius in 90% plus humidity as outside of a rainstorm or microniches it doesn't usually get that high where the frogs are from.. for example in the Sipilawini Savannah area the average RH is between 60-85% and that is with air flow....

These guys migrate up and away from the streams.
I kept the toads initially in ten gallon tanks with only half of the tank covered with a sheet of glass to keep the humidity up with some hides for the toads if they wanted a higher RH. Later I kept them in verticle ten gallons with a 3 inch vent screen and a fan that would blow air past the front of the tank encouraging air exchange."

Shawn: I have found mine to 'seem' happier with a high humidity environment and some available water, even in the QT container.

There you go. Out of respect for the hobbyists that are helping me, I will not repost info anymore. So once I am set and my tank is done, I will try and work on a care sheet. This will not be done in time for the contest.

Eric

[Ebony]

Wow! Eric..You really have been busy .

[bshmerlie]

This is great info Eric. Any ideas out there on why the male to female ratio would be so extreme? It would think it would be very difficult if not impossible to ever get them established in the hobby with a 25 to 1 ratio.

[clownonfire]

This is great info Eric. Any ideas out there on why the male to female ratio would be so extreme? It would think it would be very difficult if not impossible to ever get them established in the hobby with a 25 to 1 ratio.

I have read that some females die during amplexus because of the length of it. Some other females also when gravid and if they do not release the eggs. I'll make sure I write back if and when I get more on this.

There are currently efforts in gathering Atelopus owners, with the list of what they own to see if breeding efforts can be combined.

[clownonfire]

From Ed: The reason you are seeing such high sex ratios is that they are collecting from the streams as when the toads aren't ready to breed they are dispersed widely up and away from the streams. The females only approach the streams when they are ready to lay eggs. So you are going to see a high sex ratio.

[clownonfire]

On the vivarium build, I have met lots of wonderful and extremely helpful hobbyists on the Facebook group I'm on. One of them, Corey, suggests the following for the build:

These guys like a slightly lower humidity than most darts (open canopy over streams allow for a slightly drier/more airflow niche) so they are a little less forgiving about stagnant airflow. I don't go for specific numbers, but aim for spraying the tank down, and having the leaves of plants and the glass dry within 1-2 hours. This is more than just humidity, this is also air movement... you can have high humidity that does this as long as you MOVE it. Small computer fans are ideal for this.

I'd think a nice heavy mist/rain in the morning, let it dry out more around noon and into afternoon, and maybe another mist at night (tho turning the fan off a few hours before lights off can have a similar affect maybe?). This idea was recommended by Ed K the last time I could harass him in person.

The spotlights mentioned in past posts also seem like they are important. Ideally it would be a dry rock/plant leaf that is warmer, and gives them access to UV rays. I prefer rock (not wood, it won't totally be dry because it will wick water from other parts of the tank, and I tend to burn plants when I do this) and I won't allow anything to grow on that spot so they have a place with no moisture. This will help with some of the bacterial infections common to wet tanks. Also helps if this rock is near the fan.

h, and aim for a basking spot for each male - they will pick a territory and defend it, leaving the other male **** out of luck. Use a lot of nice chunky rocks (what most of our set ups have been missing) and when they have their ideal spots you'll know where to put your basking lights. If they seem to have a territory without a basking spot, move your lights.

Thank you Corey. You continue to be very helpful and i am looking forward to reading more on the care sheets you are getting ready on these.

[clownonfire]

Alright. The core of the tank is done. Hydro balls, soil, coconut husk and plants. I have chosen plants that have big leaves so that the Atelopus spumarius could perch on at night.

I have also build two basking areas, at two different poles of the tank. I've used medium to large rocks, all of them have been boiled. I have also used smaller rocks to fill up the cracks. I have also put a few branches (cooked) sticking out amongst the rocks. It was suggested to keep these sections dryer, and install basking lights over them. That is tomorrow's project.

Springtails will be seeded tomorrow.

[Grrrit]

Wow eric, thorough as always! This is awesome, you hardy see the depth of research in viv threads to a certain species. Builds los really nice as well

[clownonfire]

Thanks Garrett. I've built the top after gathering as much info as I could. I've cut two pieces of acrylic that are secured on the tank using tape on each extremities where the basking lights will be put on. I have then created a screen mesh from scratch and laid another piece of acrylic leaving 1.5'' on each side, for air circulation. (I have written 3'' on the pictures, but that is in total - sorry for the confusion). Now some say a computer fan should be added for more air circulation, but I don't know if I will go froward with that one.

I have installed the other Monsoon I had and it is programmed for 60 seconds, once a day in the morning.

Eric

[clownonfire]

I have made a few adjustments to the tank after talking with some other enthusiasts. First, I added bigger rocks as the basking area. I was told my rocks were puny. That the Atelopus needed big and strong rocks, like Dwayne Johnson. So... Check.

Because they need a humid but dry environment (I have managed so far to keep a dry tank at around 84% humidity), it was suggested to add ponds with fresh water. I have created two. Now in order to maintain clean and fresh water, I have located the ponds under the dripping Exo-Terra Monsoon nozzles. Yes, they drip. Quite a bit. But in this case, it's perfect. It fills the pond and the extra water falls into the substrate beneath the surrounding rocks which remain dry. Once the water is in the drainage area, it will either evaporate or I will siphon it out when I do my weekly cleaning.

I have added a Philodendron to the plants to make sure there were even more leaves to perch on.

I had a few exchanges today with Mark Pepper. He stated that these frogs were quite hardy once they settle. I'm counting the days.

[clownonfire]

Update

After a few weeks of research, group discussions, and pictures, I have learned from Corey W that we have Atelopus hoogmoedi and not Atelopus spumarius. "Hoogmoedi" is not a sub-species of A. spumarius but its own species. Quoting Corey: "Spumarius does not range into the Guyana Shield, all the formerly known as spumarius hoogmoedi and spumarius barbitini are now their own species. Just a case of relatives looking similar."

RE: Phylogeography and demography of Guianan harlequin toads (Atelopus): diversification within a refuge - Noonan and Gaucher

Eric