2 Much D3 Deadly 4 RETFs?

[TheLivingLegend]

Just wondering if too much d3 is harmful for RETFs? Some people use really high amounts of d3, and some really low with the same schedule. Talking over 375,000 IU/kg difference each feeding. Thank you!

[flybyferns]

Just wondering if too much d3 is harmful for RETFs? Some people use really high amounts of d3, and some really low with the same schedule. Talking over 375,000 IU/kg difference each feeding. Thank you!

Good Morning,

I think it is more important to work ( using a schedule/rotation) on making sure the use of supplements are protecting against the more common problem of deficiency in captivity. It’s so difficult to adequately mimic their greatly varied diet in the wild as it almost impossible to have that may feeders available. Having said this , if one uses the product as directed , toxicity is not likely. I have more respect for the research that goes into a company creating the product than the millions of bits and pieces of research found in all the reading I do ( however, it's not a waste of time. ) I replace my supps every 3-4 months; using Rapashy and Rep-Cal as my staples. I continue to vary the products I use. Keeping them in the frig if possible helps keep them fresh, as well. I have my scheduled printed and hung on the wall so I keep on track. I date the lids when I open the supplement ( never go by the expiration date) .There is a myriad of reasons as to why frogs fail to thrive. Personally, I doubt it is due to vit toxicity. More likely, it’s poor conditions ( poor husbandry) .

I have read very little about the actual confirmation of vitamin toxicity, and less regarding vit D3 toxicity, specifically. We do however read that it "exists", which is no help. You might read more about frank "oxalate toxicity" or overdose. It is the balance of the Cal and Vit D3 that is important. Too much of one and not enough of the other is just as bad. This brings up the -ever repeated debate/question - should UVB be used?

A favorite journal article of mine: If I remember correctly- there is good information here to help answer your question
http://dels-old.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarj...03Densmore.pdf

This is a really great article explaining the importance of the balance of ( proper availability of ) calcium and Vit D3.
Articles :: Calcium and D-3 - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center

We could email Dr Frye :
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html
He may know of of recent research or journal articles

I will ........PM Frog Forum member Frank ( findiviglio )
View Profile: findiviglio - Frog Forum
He may be able to help?

Keep digging.
Sorry for any typos- I have not had my coffee !
Lynn

[Herpvet]

Hello,

Sorry to come in late.

The short answer is we don't really know what levels are appropriate even in general for amphibians, never mind for a specific species under specific husbandry conditions. There is certainly mounting evidence that many amphibs (and reptiles at least, if not also birds) are not nearly as healthy in captivity as we like to think, and specifically that bone density is generally very poor (even in clinical healthy animals) compared to wild individuals. It is worth bearing in mind also that vitamin D deficiency also intimately affects the immune system.

Until we get many more studies done (and many more post-mortem exams of captive amphibs) we are unlikely to get a definitive scientific answer (although some work is being done), so it all relies largely on anecdotal evidence. Ideally, of course, you can get your frogs assessed (via radiographs and/or other diagnostics) at regular intervals to check bone density and blood mineral levels - ok, I know I'm really into fantasy land here....

Lynn makes many good points (and sounds very organised!) - they are certainly good general principles. In practice overdose is probably unlikely but you need to look at the whole picture (set-up, particularly with regards to provision of uv-B (how much is available, how much the animals actually get exposed to), diet etc) to assess "reasonable" levels. Dusting feeder rodents, for example, is completely different thing from dusting crickets - and even within the examples, rodent levels of nutrients can vary with age, whether starved before euthanasia, strain of rodent etc, whilst crickets will vary with the diet they're fed, what stage they are, whether just moulted...and you're presumably using some sort of multivitamin, so D3 levels may not be the only levels you have to consider.......you get some idea of the complexity...

Of course, the facetious answer to your question is yes, too much of anything is harmful .

Probably not much help I'm afraid, but (as with so much herp husbandry) we really don't have anything like good scientific evidence. The ideal is probably discussing your particular husbandry etc with an experienced vet/herpetologist, but otherwise all I can say is go with a moderate-sounding regime combined from several trusted sources. But try to make sure they apply to conditions as similar as possible to yours.

Bruce.

[Heatheranne]

Thanks! I had wondered the same. I just read an article posted by amphibian ark. Here is the article in case you'd like to read it.

http://aark.portal.isis.org/research...0nutrition.pdf