HELP!!!!!!!!!!!! RED EYE REALLY ILLL!!!!!!!!!!! or something...

[flybyferns]

Hi Savannah,

I am going to be blunt. You have worked so hard! Hang in there ! This is not easy !

This is a long post. Get a cup of tea! If questions should continue to come up, just keep asking
---we all know the answers to them

I'm sorry you are going through all of this. I think your frogs got severely stressed. As you know this can occur for numerous reasons. Then things just spiral down ! I think you have to back-up.

Heather is a pro at this...without these soaks they will not get better.

I agree with Brian ( post # 18). If these were my frogs, I would put ALL of them into small hospital tanks (ALONE), for as long as it takes. Red eyes can be difficult --- you will get through this. They require a very routine, dedicated schedule, and a bunch of supplies. This is an expensive hobby.

hospital tanks are a must ! :
These small tanks need to be cleaned before they are used. VERY diluted bleach and water. RINSE.........the last rinse should have several drops of de-chlorinator in it and let it sit there for a while. Use a clean branch ( live if possible ) from a pothos plant in each tank ( never get them mixed up).

To clean the branches: Home depot has potted pothos -- its cheap. When you get it home ....dump the entire plant's soil into the trash. One plant is now several cuttings. Shake off as much soil as possible off of each cutting, leaving the roots exposed. . Rinse off ( with tap water) every possible speck of dirt.
Dip these into a solution of bleach and water . You can dip these branches for a few seconds into the bleach /water that is in the tanks when you are cleaning them. Simply organize things before you start. Put one big branch in each hospital tank. To suspend the branch(s) ( if possible-- but necessary) cut a suction cup to hold a stem. Home depot has a billion different sizes. Get large ones ( no metal hooks) ...cut a slit into the end ... and push the stem in. Leave the roots exposed. These branches will be fine without dirt- since their roots will be touching the very we paper towel substrate.

When setting the tanks up – be mindful of ‘easy cleaning’. You want to keep things as simple as possible, and get in and out of the tank as quickly as possible to reduce stress. Always clean in daylight. Be as careful as possible not to wake a frog.

Use dampened paper towel on the bottom of each tank w/ screen lids. Cover at least 1/2 of the lids ( plastic or plexi) to keep the humidity in. FYI - petco is having a $1 a gallon sale. You can purchase those little 'floating' aquarium type thermometers for less than $2 each . ( these work great- just set it on the bottom of each tank) These little tanks never go to waste--- they can be re-used for numerous froggy protects. Change out the paper towel 3 times a week ( create a written schedule). A paper towel change should be done during the daylight so to reduce any additional stress on them. As mentioned, use small 'saucer-like' soaking dishes ( containing de-chlorinated water only). This should be changed daily ( during the day)--rinse dishes off with as hot as water you can -no cleaner of any kind. Don’t get the dishes mixed up.

Clean a spray bottle ( again) ie put it through the dishwater ( then rinse, rinse, rinse and rinse). Use de-clorinated water ,ONLY, in the spray bottle for misting. Never spray the frog directly.

de-chlorinator:
Exo Terra : Aquatize / Terrarium Water Conditioner

thermometer: ( not the one with the metal case!)
Aquarium Thermometers, Aquarium Thermometers | PetSolutions

cover three sides of each little tank ( ie cut a brown paper bag ).
provide a day /night cycle.
Night should be - complete darkness. ( no viewing bulbs for now) if you have to peak use a dim flash light / briefly

Feeding:
Even if the frogs are not eating on their own, continue to feed them every day !!!!!!!( small crickets ONLY) . Keep track of how many you put in. Don't be afraid to be generous. Make dinner an easy catch. If you have any - clear- 2 cup pyrex type bowls......... feed in bowls and on the paper towel. Remove uneaten crickets every morning and put them back into the cricket bin to gut load. Gut load w/prepared cricket product. Gut loading is very important. Crickets need to be kept as healthy as possible . The glass feeding bowls need to be cleaned every day- rinse in hot tap water and dry w/ paper towel

Great product:
Amazon.com: Fluker's Hi Calcium Cricket Feed: Pet Supplies

When you get a chance, could you please answer these questions? Cut and past the red into another post or PM. Remember we are backing up. Answer these in retrospect -------- regarding your previous habits
( before all of this ) with their main enclosure and typical daily care. I’m hoping we can isolate a possible reason(s) for what has happened. I have modified these questions for you. Some of the answers we already know, just do the best you can. Repeat the information if possible.

1-size of enclosure
2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
3-humidity
4-temp
5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6-materials used for substrate
7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
8-main food source
9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ) what brand
10-lighting
11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12-how often were you feeding
13-were you finding poop – what did it look like be descriptive !
ie was it running down the side of the tank ?
14-on going- a pics would be great ( including the frog(s) any little cell phone pic is fine
15- how old is are frog(s)
16-how long have you owned them
17- are the frogs wild caught or captive bred
18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats
19- about how often were he frog(s) handled
20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area
21- Describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)

Last but not least:
Do you have a herp vet?
What medications do you have on hand?
Or, have you been in touch with Dr Frye.

[Heatheranne]

Excellent post, Lynn! Thank you!

Savannah, Lynn is right. If you want to save your baby, you have to start the soaks today.

Dehydration led to this (see photo below) in just 3 days at my local store. I saved five of the six. The sixth was too sick. These frogs came into the pet store just a bit dehydrated. I was there the day they were delivered to them. They were just thin and needed some hydration. It doesn't take long to deteriorate after that. They quit eating because they don't feel well, are stressed, and because they weaken. This is where we step in to help them. You can do it! We will help you through.

Pick up some plain unflavored pedialyte, some plain honey, and a bunch of decent plain paper towels. You'll need to keep the hospital tanks warm. Use either UTH heat pads or 50 watt red bulbs on a dimmer. Be ready to keep the tanks moist, especially if using the red bulbs.

Here are some pictures.



Hospital tank:


A simpler pothos vine would do. It makes them feel safe and gives them something to perch on and sleep on.

[Heatheranne]

If you can, pick up some Reptaboost too. It's a powdered supplement for when reptiles and amphibians quit eating.

[Savannah]

heres some updated pictures
healthy one

[mtndendros]

Territorial behavior in red eyed tree frogs generally occurs during mating season or in times of resource (space, water) shortage, and even then it usually stops short of physical confrontation. It's very unlikely that bullying is responsible for the condition of this frog, especially if you have ample space in the tank. However, separating them might be a good idea at this point, if only for quarantining. But make sure the new enclosure has all the right conditions with regard to humidity, temperatures, etc. It also wouldn't hurt to have a vet at the ready should things take a bad turn.

What about male vs. female? Curious as to why one would seek out the water and the other did not?

[mtndendros]

Hi Lynn and Heather ... this is Savannah's mom, Brenna. I just wanted to thank you for all your help and for supporting Savannah during this crisis. Lynn, that last post should be a sticky! Detailed information, easy to understand - great for us newbies! I just wanted to address your questions.


I think you have to back-up.

Not sure what you mean.


Heather is a pro at this...without these soaks they will not get better.

In process. We live in a rural area and everything has been shut down for the holidays. Even Walgreens.


1-size of enclosure
Originally they were in a 12x12x12 exo terra as a quarantine tank. Very basic. It had been thoroughly cleaned before getting new inhabitants. As soon as we realized it was much too hot, we pulled them out and put them into an 12x12x18.

2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
2 frogs. Both bought at the same time, from the same place, and are very close in size. The healthier one is 1.75" and the sicker one is 2"

3-humidity
65 - 75%. She was having issues maintaining the humidity in that tank, we think due to the heat.

4-temp
unknown. originally, she didn't have a thermometer in the tank. After we moved them to the larger enclosure, we put one in there. It was 86 degrees with the lights on. Ugh.

5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
distilled

6-materials used for substrate
since it was a quarantine tank, it was paper towels only.

7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
paper towels and a bamboo. since it was a quarantine tank, it was really no muss, no fuss. She had one tupperware plastic container for water about 5" across.

8-main food source
small dusted crickets

9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ) what brand
Repashy SuperCal - every feeding

10-lighting
Originally a 75w bulb. After moving them, we put in a 40 w, but it's still too hot! going to try a lower CFL.

11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
The light bulb. Nothing else was needed since it was a small tank. Unfortunately, it was too much heat.

12-how often were you feeding
She put in 5 - 6 crickets the first day. dusted. They were loose on the bottom as the frogs hung out on the glass. Easy prey. After two days, they were gone and she added another 5 to 6.

13-were you finding poop – what did it look like be descriptive !
ie was it running down the side of the tank ?
Found poop. Not runny, dark in color. Solid enough to hold its shape.

14-on going- a pics would be great ( including the frog(s) any little cell phone pic is fine
See Savannah's previous post just above for pics.

15- how old is are frog(s)
8 to 9 months, we think. The healthier one is 1.75" and the sicker one is 2:

16-how long have you owned them
2 weeks today

17- are the frogs wild caught or captive bred
CB

18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats
dusted small crickets. What would you suggest as treats or to add diversity to their diet? We've been trying to get more info on this. We are planning on putting them into a new tank seeded with tropical springtails. what else can you suggest??

19- about how often were he frog(s) handled
Once, upon pulling them out of the small exo to the bigger one. Even when we got them, we let them find their way out of their container and into the viv.

20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area
originally, very low. Now, low to medium.

21- Describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
Daily on both.

Last but not least:
Do you have a herp vet?
We have access to one but are not established patients. He is an hour away and a 3,000 ft drop in elevation. We live at 9,000 feet.

What medications do you have on hand?
neosporin, pedialyte. trying to get baytril.

Or, have you been in touch with Dr Frye.
We email Dr. Frye, but have not heard back. Possibly due to the holidays, since it all started on xmas eve


Hope these help. Please feel free to ask anything you need to know.

Again, thank you for all your help and support!

[flybyferns]

Hi,
You are very welcome. I'm sure if Heather were sitting next to me she would say the same.
I have responded to each of your questions/ answers below in green.

I think you have to back-up.
Not sure what you mean.
This is regarding their care. Keep it simple. Start over. There is no need to have an elaborate set up.
Paper towel substrate is fine. Yes -even permanently! ie I have had 8 tree frogs for 4 yeas in tank with out standard , layered, soil substrate- ever.


Heather is a pro at this...without these soaks they will not get better.

In process. We live in a rural area and everything has been shut down for the holidays. Even Walgreens.


This is great ! They will get better !

1-size of enclosure
Originally they were in a 12x12x12 exo terra as a quarantine tank. Very basic. It had been thoroughly cleaned before getting new inhabitants. As soon as we realized it was much too hot, we pulled them out and put them into an 12x12x18.

The first was way too small
The 2nd ----12x12x18 - if you mean 18 high -it will be fine for a 'hospital' enclosure. If you meant 12" high its still too low. They need height. higher the better !


2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
2 frogs. Both bought at the same time, from the same place, and are very close in size. The healthier one is 1.75" and the sicker one is 2"

I suppose you could just leave them together at this point.


3-humidity
65 - 75%. She was having issues maintaining the humidity in that tank, we think due to the heat.
this is ok- as long as the device is accurate? It should not be sustained above 80% humidity or ever drop below 65%. Ideal 70-80%

4-temp
unknown. originally, she didn't have a thermometer in the tank. After we moved them to the larger enclosure, we put one in there. It was 86 degrees with the lights on. Ugh.

Yikes
should be :
daytime temps 78-82 (max)
night - 71-75

5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
distilled

distilled water has no minerals in it
This is a biggy. A MUST change ASAP
It should be de-chorinated tap water( using a product such a 'Aquatize')

see:
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ng-else-5.html


6-materials used for substrate
since it was a quarantine tank, it was paper towels only.

great !

7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
paper towels and a bamboo. since it was a quarantine tank, it was really no muss, no fuss. She had one tupperware plastic container for water about 5" across.

This sounds fine- should be shallow ---- de- chloinated water ( only)

8-main food source
small dusted crickets

great !

9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ) what brand
Repashy SuperCal - every feeding

good !

Originally a 75w bulb. After moving them, we put in a 40 w, but it's still too hot! going to try a lower CFL.

11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
The light bulb. Nothing else was needed since it was a small tank. Unfortunately, it was too much heat.

you are right ---sorry

12-how often were you feeding
She put in 5 - 6 crickets the first day. dusted. They were loose on the bottom as the frogs hung out on the glass. Easy prey. After two days, they were gone and she added another 5 to 6.

Good ! Feed them well. In my opinion they will not over eat .

13-were you finding poop – what did it look like be descriptive !
ie was it running down the side of the tank ?
Found poop. Not runny, dark in color. Solid enough to hold its shape.


This is the best news so far !!!!!! Runny poop typically = parasites.

14-on going- a pics would be great ( including the frog(s) any little cell phone pic is fine
See Savannah's previous post just above for pics.

15- how old is are frog(s)
8 to 9 months, we think. The healthier one is 1.75" and the sicker one is 2:

16-how long have you owned them
2 weeks today

They are still adjusting! This can take weeks

17- are the frogs wild caught or captive bred
CB

18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats
dusted small crickets.

What would you suggest as treats or to add diversity to their diet? We've been trying to get more info on this. We are planning on putting them into a new tank seeded with tropical springtails. what else can you suggest??

moving forward- a red eyed tree frog can not eat spring tails, they are too small --they are used ( as janitors) to help keep soil substrate clean.


19- about how often were he frog(s) handled
Once, upon pulling them out of the small exo to the bigger one. Even when we got them, we let them find their way out of their container and into the viv.

20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area
originally, very low. Now, low to medium.


ok- you might cover three sides of the tank - now. It make them feel safer and less stressed.

21- Describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
Daily on both.

great ! This should be done during the day ( when they are sleeping) , so they are not disturbed.

Last but not least:
Do you have a herp vet?
We have access to one but are not established patients. He is an hour away and a 3,000 ft drop in elevation. We live at 9,000 feet.

What medications do you have on hand?
neosporin, pedialyte. trying to get baytril.

[COLOR="#006400"]be VERY careful with baytril ! Dr Frye may suggest Flagyl (Metronidazole ) instead. consider keeping panacur on hand if parasites are discovered. /COLOR]

Or, have you been in touch with Dr Frye.
We email Dr. Frye, but have not heard back. Possibly due to the holidays, since it all started on xmas eve

Great ! He will get back to you. You will NOT be sorry , he is terrific. You don't have to cart them so far.

Hope these help. Please feel free to ask anything you need to know.

Again, thank you for all your help and support!

You are welcome !


I think the responses to these posts are spot on !
I think they got dehydrated from the high temps. This stress just spirals !
Their skin color will improve over time.
The soaks are ,so, very important.
Do they look better since the temps have been lowered ?

Hope this helps
Lynn

[Heatheranne]

Hi Brenna! Nice to meet you . Thanks so much for helping Savannah with her frogs!

Lynn has covered it in great detail for you. Thanks Lynn!

Red eyes do very well when their home conditions are right. They are very rewarding to observe. So pretty . And just wait until you hear them calling, if you have a male . We adore ours .

Bummer is, when things are off, they can stress and get sick. Once sick, they need our help. But, the good news is, they can recover if helped soon after the ailments start. Timing is most important. Lingering allows them to become sicker and weaker, lessening their chance for recovery.

I have recovered 5 of the six red eyes I took in as sick adoptees this past year. One too sick to pull through, as you can see in the photos. The other five doing great, thriving, and I presume happy due to their behaviors.

It is a bit tedious until they begin to heal and start eating on their own, but it can be done. It is rewarding to be able to heal them.

Savannah is doing a great job in learning all she can here .

Unfortunately, we see this often. Purchasing the frog(s) before we have their homes ready, accurate, and waiting for them, before we bring them home. Education is key. Good husbandry (maintaining their homes as close to the natural in the wild with temps, humidity, and cleanliness) is most important. Because they thrive in the rainforest, we must recreate mini rainforests for them. All is not lost. It's a good learning experience. No one of us had our set-ups perfect without a bit of tweaking when we started. The goal is to learn and be prepared before bringing our babies home. Trust me...75% of people learn backwards...the frog before the home. We try and help guide everyone in need so they can have happy, healthy frogs and can enjoy them . Some of the problem is the stores the frogs are purchased from...poor or no education from the start. I found this site while searching for more education for my own, thankfully. Who knew one day I'd be teaching others and rescuing sick frogs. Good luck, I suppose .

Anyhow, I'm a chatterbox, ha ha, so I'll get back to focus .

The goal now is to learn and move forward. Heal these babies so you can relax and enjoy them . We will help you .

Savannah, hang in there! You can do it! We are here with you .

Lynn's outstanding list has what you need. Start with the soaks: 1 part plain, unflavored pedialyte to 10 parts luke warm dechlorinated water. Soak in a shallow bowl for 15 to 20 minutes. The frogs' skin are quite absorbent and they will get some of the vital electrolytes they need. It will also give them a bit of energy. It does not provide the calcium they need, so we may have to move to the next level if they do not eat soon. Sometimes the soaks give them the energy they need to hunt. I'm hoping so. Reptaboost is a good thing to have on hand. It is a powdered supplement used when amphibians and reptiles are not eating. It does have calcium in it. Force feeding is the last step. Lets get them rehydrated first and see if we can get them to eat on their own. Force feeding is even more stressful to them so we try to avoid it unless necessary. Holding them also puts them at risk for skin scratches and bacteria, so it is a last resort.

On that note, be sure to wash your hands thoroughly for a good 20 seconds or more, followed by a very thorough rinse before handling them. The bacteria and oils on our skin are harmful to them. Non-powdered, disposable gloves can be used. Discard gloves after each use. Also wash hands between frogs, even if in the same tank.

Good luck! Keep us posted. Remember, we are here for you.

[mtndendros]

The 2nd ----12x12x18 - if you mean 18 high -it will be fine for a 'hospital' enclosure. If you meant 12" high its still too low. They need height. higher the better !

Yes, 18" high.


this is ok- as long as the device is accurate? It should not be sustained above 80% humidity or ever drop below 65%. Ideal 70-80%

seems to be, short of having two?


distilled water has no minerals in it
This is a biggy. A MUST change ASAP
It should be de-chorinated tap water( using a product such a 'Aquatize')
see:
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ng-else-5.html

We are on a well. We've never had the water tested. Savannah used it for Jewl's tank recently and she got sick with a bacterial infection. We were actually wondering if it was from the water as it was the only new thing that we could think of that may have caused it? Opinions? Anyways, we've been nervous to use it again. I'll check out the thread, thx!


moving forward- a red eyed tree frog can not eat spring tails, they are too small --they are used ( as janitors) to help keep soil substrate clean.

What would you suggest as treats or to add diversity to their diet? We've been trying to get more info on this. We figured janitors are good, Jewl's previous tank didn't have any, so we also wondered if after a year whether her tank was toxic and may have contributed to her bacterial infection. Opinions?


What medications do you have on hand?
neosporin, pedialyte. trying to get baytril.

[COLOR="#006400"]be VERY careful with baytril ! Dr Frye may suggest Flagyl (Metronidazole ) instead. consider keeping panacur on hand if parasites are discovered. /COLOR]

thought this was on a hospital list to have on hand. Will look to get the others suggested instead, thx!

Or, have you been in touch with Dr Frye.
We email Dr. Frye, but have not heard back. Possibly due to the holidays, since it all started on xmas eve

Great ! He will get back to you. You will NOT be sorry , he is terrific. You don't have to cart them so far.
I like that!

Their skin color will improve over time.
The soaks are ,so, very important.
Do they look better since the temps have been lowered ?

They both look better. The slightly larger one is looking really good again and is eating. The smaller one we thought we'd lost is still looking dark and weak. Moves stiffly and slowly. If this makes sense ... Toes don't seem as "grippy" but is hanging on without sliding.

Hope this helps

[Heatheranne]

Yep, the 12x12x18" is fine for quarantining 1 or 2.

I would recommend the 18x18x24 for their future home. A general guide is one frog per 10 gallons of space. 18x18x24 = 7,776 cubic inches, divided by 231 = 33.66 gallons of space .


Bottled spring water is okay. It has the minerals still in it. Distilled is not good.

Treats: you can feed crickets, cut up earth worms, very small dubia nymphs (babies). They are usually happy with crickets. The crickets should be no larger than the distance between their eyes. Avoid mealworms.

Medications and/or treatments to have on hand: pedialyte, plain honey, original neosporin, Reptaboost, liquid calcium (reptile/amphibian type), metronidizole, silver sulfadiazene, Panacur, Baytril. All medications, such as the last 4 should be dosed by a vet.

[Savannah]

yea thats what im working on now for jewl and the one baby.

[Savannah]

here heather these are the white spots i asked about.

[Heatheranne]

They have been there since you got him, right?

[mtndendros]

They have been there since you got him, right?

The previous picture of him in this thread shows them being there. Not sure if they were there from the beginning but will double check when we can.

[flybyferns]

here heather these are the white spots i asked about.

Hi,
These little white spots are normal pigmentation in their skin. Some red eyed tree frogs have none, a few or many.. The # of spots should always remain the same ( like freckles) . This is why Heather ( if I may) is asking if they have always been there? Sometimes these white spots are confused with a disease called Oodinium- this does not look the oodinium to me.

[Heatheranne]

I agree. It does not look like Oodinium. They look like normal 'birth marks', shall we say. Like how humans have moles and beauty marks, or freckles (as Lynn noted). That's the best example I can think of. Many red eyes have white spots. A few of mine do also. My Serena has quite a few.

Oodinium is often accompanied by lethargy. A light case can be treated with chamomile tea, oddly enough. More advanced cases would need medical care. It is caused by unsanitary housing.

I think your baby looks fine.

[Savannah]

yea hes not lethargic at all. up and moving around. and i looked at pics i took when i first got him i dont see any one him in the photos...but they dont seem to be increasing in number.... illl have to count them. but he isnt lethargic...

oh and Jewls spots are definetly going away they are getting smaller. just in time to. ill be able to put them together soon. this friday i think.