Dubia colony questions

[fish4all]

I have been researching them a lot and found a lot of different information on them. I ran across this site and a very well written article Jeff and decided this was the place to find reliable information.

I know the basics and maybe a little more. Housing, lighting, heat, food and moisture. I understand most of it but I can not claim any real knowledge because I have never tried to raise them, yet.

Water crystals, egg crate, sufficient size bin, heat one side to keep colony around 85f, light not needed.

I have chorus frogs from my state that were caught in the wild as both froglets and poles. They have grown a lot and have outgrown fruit flies for the most part although the smaller ones will eat them a little still. I have switched to crickets but I hate them, and I have bred them before and it was a smelly, noisy, and often just awful experience. I have 7 frogs, they currently eat about 3 dozen small to medium crickets a week. I know the roaches will take a while to be high enough numbers to feed off regularly as I am likely getting 75 mixed nymphs to start out.

My main question is, before I get the nymphs, is am I thinking in the right direction for feeding them so they provide good nutrition to my frogs? Here is my plan:
Medium quality dog food, brewers yeast, baby cereal, veggies, fruits grain cereal. I currently culture my fruit flies on brewers yeast, instant potatoes and oatmeal baby cereal with awesome results. And my frogs are beautiful and healthy. Can that same mixture be used for the roaches or do I need a lot more variety as I listed? Both for the roaches health and my frogs health.

I just want a healthy colony of roaches that I can feed nymphs off every couple of days as a main food source. I will supplement with houseflies, bottle flies and other feeder insects but the roaches will be the main food supply. Do I seem to have the information I need or am I missing something key that will hurt my frogs instead of help them or even hurt my chances of having a successful breeding colony?

Sorry for asking so much but I often find myself at a standstill when it comes to new challenges before I ask and have thought about things a lot before hitting a forum for an answer. It also takes a while for me to find one I think has the information and members who will help me with good information I need to make sure I do things right.

Some general info on my frogs, 7 of them, range in size from 1 to 1.5 inches nose to tail. I think I have 3 females and 4 males but I haven't been able to reliably confirm this. I know that adult roaches will be too large for them but the nymphs should make great feeders for them up to maybe 1/2 inch if I am lucky.

And I guess the key question, is this species of roach the right choice for my frogs and their future needs?

Again, sorry for the lengthy first post but if I don't ask when I am thinking about it I will forget. Picture to follow if I can get quality ones. In another post of course.

[JeffreH]

Welcome to the forum fish4all! Lucky for you, I am fond of lengthy posts = )

The diet for the roaches that you listed sounds excellent, both for the benefit of the frogs and for the benefit of the roaches. I like to think of it this way: The reproductive success for roaches isn't so dependent on variety and quality of food... they will thrive so long as temperature, moisture, and space demands are met even on a poor quality gutload. The variety and quality of the food you offer to the insects is going to more directly benefit the frog. You could probably raise an excellent colony of roaches purely on some dog food and lettuce - but by offering a nice variety and nutritious foods (say Collard Greens instead of Lettuce) you will be able to pack more goodies into the feeder for the frog.

I would HIGHLY recommend getting a started culture or feeding a few roaches right off the bat to your frogs to ensure they will accept them readily. Blaptica dubia can be a hit or miss with some species... particuarly because they seem to have an uncanny ability to sense danger and will often bunker down and sit still for some lengths of time. They are excellent feeders and highly relished by those that will take them, but I've found that some nocturnal, arboreal species rely heavily on movement to encourage a feeding response.

Perhaps because you have a smaller species, you may consider a couple of different species in addition to dubia. Blatta (Shelfordella) lateralis... the Red Runners/Turkistan roaches are a favorite amonst my Rhacodactylus geckos where I have a few animals that will turn their noses up to B. dubia. Turkistan roaches stay smaller and max out about the size of an adult cricket. They also do not fly or climb, but are a little smellier than B. dubia (don't let this discourage you, I assure you they are nothing like crickets). The main kicker is that they lay egg cases. This makes them more prolific...capable of cranking out 1-2 ooths monthly. The downside is these ooths can require a bit of tender loving care in their humidity needs. If this is an option you'd like to consider, I would be more than happy to go into specifics.

Lobster roaches are another smaller and prolific option, also attaining a size similar to that of an adult cricket. The major downside to these guys is they can climb glass and smoother surfaces (and they too are smellier for a roach). Lobsters are probably one of the most prolific feeder roaches on the market and give live birth, making them virtualy effortless to culture if you can get past the climbing.

Given the size of your frogs - I think these three species will be most reasonable and most readily attainable for you. So in a nutshell: Dubia are great, but make sure your herps will take them. Be somewhat persistent; my friend's milk frog took a few tries before he actually ate one and from that point forward he began eating them like candy. If you want smaller and more prolific roaches that move around a bit more and attract pickier feeders, go with lats or lobsters = ) It seems these two species are softer-bodied as well, which may influence feeding preferences in some species. Nutritionally speaking though, all roaches are virtually the same in composition.

[fish4all]

Thank you, that makes me feel like I have actually done enough research to possibly make a colony work.

I have fed the frogs crickets, fruit flies, house flies, bottle flies and wood lice (potato bugs) and they seem to go after anything that moves. I think size will be a more determining factor than type of bug. The only thing I have found is they will grab a larger bug but drop it or spit it out if they think it is too large. I do plan on having other feeders as I stated just to make sure that alll the frogs eat. I know 3 of the frogs will not hesitate to eat a Dubia, the others, if I make sure I have flies they will get fed until I can get them to take the Dubia, if they ever do. Or whatever roach if I decide to go with another one.

Lobsters are probably not gonna happen because I need to keep them confined or my wife will exterminate them. Is going to be hard enough to make sure I can keep the Dubia safe and zero escapes for the wife to freak out over.

The runners sound like an interesting option. Being able to hatch the ootheca separately might be a big advantage for feeding. Being able to take the ooths and put them in separate containers would be a nice way to have the perfect size when it is feeding time. And a lot less sorting. The only drawback is the only ootheca I have ever hatched was a mantis ooth so zero experience there. Any information specific to them would be helpful. I can see having 3-5 jars set up for hatching the ooths already.

And if I am understanding this right, gut loading has nothing to do with the health of of the feeder. It is simply a way to load the stomach of the feeder to get other stuff into our pets that they wouldn't get from the bug itself. Here I thought it was all about the health of the feeder. Guess I should have put two and two together by now, after years of raising feeder insects of some sort or another. I doubt I will mess with gut loading, sounds a lot easier just to feed them a proper diet that also can benefit the pets instead of messing with special needs right before feeding them off.

Information on hatching the runner ooths would be helpful, maybe i will go with them instead of the Dubia simply for size reasons. I doubt my frogs would eat a full sized cricket so Dubia may be too big too fast to be a viable feeder.

[JeffreH]

You are absolutely correct about the gutloading - while I think providing a quality diet throughout the insect's life may increase overall nutrional benefits slightly, its probably insignificant and the real show stopper is the gut contents. Insects have very specific needs and their body doesn't store things like calcium very readily, hence why gutloading prior to feeding and dusting is so important. I highly doubt a high quality dog food vs. a poor quality food will make that much of a difference in cockroach mortality and reproductive fitness. In fact, I know of fellow hobbyists who have kept dozens of species for years on a diet of only dog food and apples... so anything else you throw in there is really just benefitting your herps with a nutrional boost. This is why I think using a variety of items and quality feed is important, as the micro/macronutrients found in plant matter can really only be obtained from the insects that a frog consumes.

As for the Red Runners - It sounds like you've got a pretty solid gameplan. I've always wanted to separate ooths and rear them in the manner you are suggesting, but never really had the time or need. It would certainly increase the productively and make things far more organized...especially for sorting as you've noted.

The main key for Red Runner ooths is to prevent them from drying out. To accomplish this, I place a 1-2" layer of peat moss and coir (Eco-Earth) on the bottom of the bin...making this one of the only feeder species I use substrate for. The substrate holds moisture better and prevents the near direct contact with the heating element I use under the bottom of the bin (Flexwatt Heat Tape). I also keep a constant and heft supply of water crystals available at all times in the bin, which helps to promote some extra humidity. I still get a few ooths here and there that dry out using this method, but produce so many tiny nymphs it isn't worth it to separate them out for some TLC.... but I primarily feed adult and large nymph lats.

If I were you trying the separation method with jars - I would run the bottom of the bin bare as you would for B. dubia. Stack egg flats or drink carriers vertically so all ooths and frass fall to the bottom, and every couple of days check in and remove any new ooths you see. This can easily be accomplished by simply tilting the bin, as the ooths will just roll off to the side of interest. Then, set up a jar with some moist coir/peat moss/soil of choice that is slightly damp, but not dripping or soaking wet when squeezed. The ooths should be just fine laying right on top of the soil, but the main purpose of the substrate is to create a slightly humid environment in the jar. For this reason, you may opt to place something dry between the substrate and ooths as a barrier just in case too much direct moisture contact has a negative effect as well (again, I've not actually employed this method, just speculating). The major pitfall will be the need for heat for the ooths as well...so you may either want to A) Set up a new baby bin or heat the incubation jars specifically or B) Place an incubation jar inside of the main roach colony bin in such a way that other roaches cannot access it. The jar should be ventilated, but probably not completely open since we want to keep the substrate from drying out too rapidly.

If you ever cultured crickets - think of the lateralis ooths like cricket eggs. They need some heat, and they can't be kept too dry. On the flip side, too much moisture or sitting in a saturated soil may also prove fatal to the egg case. You'll just need to play around with finding a happy median. I promise it isn't rocket science though ; )

Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on anything further!

[fish4all]

What is the absolute low end to have either species breed, runners and Dubia? At what temp do they die both high and low?

The heat source, is it meant to keep the entire colony at 85-90 or just the egg crates where they stay? Can the food and water area be slightly cooler or will the heat mat/tape keep the whole bin pretty much the same temp?

What temperature do you keep you colonies Jeff? And how many adult runners or Dubia would I need to have approximately 400-500 nymphs a month to feed to my frogs? Feeding supplemented with flies, wood lice and other stuff. I have tried to calculate this and have come up with 25 female Dubia and 20 female runners with extras from these numbers if they are breeding properly.

Getting closer, hopefully I will have it all in hand before getting the little buggers.

I am actually thinking of 2 bins with either species, adults breeding in one and nymphs growing or hatching in the other. Should be plenty enough room in two 10 gallon bins for more than enough to feed my little chorus frogs. And a backup is always a good idea. Fruit flies taught me that lesson. That and two 10 gallon bins lets me put the bins in a larger tote so that there are no escapees so the Mrs. doesn't freak out on me.

[unkempt1]

I wanna help too! Sorry, don't mean to butt in but I enjoy talking about roaches just as much as Jeff does.

What is the absolute low end to have either species breed, runners and Dubia? At what temp do they die both high and low?

I can only speak for Dubia. I'd keep it around 90-95 to guarantee consistent breeding, but they can breed more slowly in the 85 degree range. They won't start dying until you get below the 45 degree range, but are pretty sluggish and probably don't eat very well at temps that low.

The heat source, is it meant to keep the entire colony at 85-90 or just the egg crates where they stay? Can the food and water area be slightly cooler or will the heat mat/tape keep the whole bin pretty much the same temp?

You should still have a cool side, although technically if they get too warm you we see them chilling out at the tops of the crates, which is fine. My setup has the food/water on the cool side, which is what I recommend. Warm side should be the crate side.

What temperature do you keep you colonies Jeff? And how many adult runners or Dubia would I need to have approximately 400-500 nymphs a month to feed to my frogs?

i hope I can answer too. I keep mine between 90-95, usually closer to 90 degrees. I've heard that temps above 95 degrees can kill adult males, but haven't personally experienced this because my heat pad doesn't get that hot. Growth-wise, each female will give birth to 20-30 babies each month.

I would recommend the 2-bin setup, it's what I use. That way you can feed your breeders higher protein stuff, and your feeders the stuff your frog would benefit from. I have a bearded dragon and pacman, so I feed my feeders collard/mustard/turnip greens, prickly pears, and very rarely fruits like apples and mangos. I feed my breeder colony a roach chow I make myself that includes dog food and plant proteins. I recommend feeding them more than just fruits and veggies, otherwise the males will kill each other. I have experienced this with my colony when I just gave them fruits/veggies when I had only one bin and fed directly from my colony. Having two bins also has the advantage of not needing to bother your feeders too often, which believe me the less you mess with them the more effectively they will grow.

[Heatheranne]

I use a 10 gallon aquarium tank with a screened lid and infared heat bulb and mine breed faster than I can keep up with. Very easy.

[Heatheranne]

You won't need to trim the corners. Mine have never gotten out. They can't climb the glass. So long as you keep the egg carton low in the tank, there's nothing else to grab onto. If you stack it too high they'll grab the screen and walk upside down on it. The heat lamp weighs down the lid. I keep them in my side room on the floor. None of the sides are covered at all, just lots of egg carton stacked sideways. I keep my heat at about 88 to 90 degrees.

I purchased 200 last year in the fall. It took them about a month to start reproducing fast. This fall I sold 150 and gave away another 200 and I still have probably around 400 + in there. There are always new babies and nicely molted ones. I feed out the nice squooshy molted ones .

I honestly just feed them once a week. I make them a nice fruit salad usually with oranges and apples in a circle on a kids plastic plate with water gel as the center and I make another plate with powdered cricket food and Cheerios. Occasionally I give them other foods like carrots, bananas, or potatoes. They love oranges. I slice them in circles and all they leave is the rind.

I clean out the frass (feces and shed skins) every few months.

That's it . No escapees, very little mess, and lots of babies.

[fish4all]

All good Jeff. Aquaria can be expensive but once in a while Petco has them for $1 a gallon. Still higher than you would pay for a sterlite or other tub but not bad for prices. $10 isn't bad at all for 10 gallon tank.

I can see your point about the temperature regulation though. If they are not filled with water then the temp will fluxuate a lot. I was more worried about the light problems but Heather helped with that.

I will probably get heat tape sooner or later but the cost of the thermostat is going to make me wait for a month or 2 before I can get it all ready but may be that long before I get the roaches. Can anyone recommend which thermostat to get. Also, do you put the probe on top of the heat mat for temperature readings or inside the bin/tank?

[unkempt1]

I'd also be interested in this forums insights on a decent heat tape, but one that can be used in a sterilite tub. The heat pad I use has a really bad heat transfer; I jut want something more efficient and effective, and I can always use the heat pad for a second tub (or heaven forbid for myself when I get sore).

[JeffreH]

Heather's on it with a dimmer - you can pick up a cheap lamp dimmer (rheostat) from Lowe's or Home Depot for ~$10. Obviously, you won't get the accuracy and convenience that the thermostat offers in controlling temps, but if you have a thermometer you can simply dim your undertank heater, heat tape, or light to the appropriate temperature range. You'll just have to check temps every now and then to adjust the dimmer switch accordingly for seasonal fluctuations in your ambient house temp. This is how I generally prefer to run things - as my basement stays fairly constant in temperature year round anyway and I have a few tempguns at my disposal for easy point and shoot temp readings to adjust.

If you do use a thermostat, you'll want the probe on inside, bottom surface of the bin. Assuming you have your heat tape or UTH under the bin, you want the reading right above it. I like to shoot for about 90 degrees on the inside bottom surface. With a closed bin and a small area of ventilation, this allows my 20 gallon tubs to reach ambient temps in the 80's throughout much of the volume with heat tape running beneath the entire bin.

I've heard decent things about a Thermostat used for hydroponics called Hydrofarm... literally just heard about it today from a fellow hobbyist. They run a lot cheaper than other thermostats I've used... I've used Rancos and Herpstats for my snake collection and have been very pleased with them.

Unkempt - I use Flexwatt Heat Tape. I personally get it from my buddy Eric Erb (owns ReptileTubs.com) who vends most of the Ohio shows and Tinley Park, but I've only ever purchased it from him via expos. The heat tape peaks out at a surface temp of ~115 degrees F, making it relatively safe to use even on full power in most situations. There are a variety of online sources... if my memory serves me correctly - The Bean Farm and Reptile Supplies, Dog, Cat, Small Pet Supply & Aquarium Products sell heat tape and associated materials.

Be sure to install heat tape correctly! If you do not know how to solder, you'll want to buy the clips and have electrical tape at the ready to insulate them. Very cheap and very easy to install... All you need to some pliers to clamp the clips in if you opt to do it that way. I can get a 1ft section of 11" wide heat tape for about $6 at the show with the extension cord and clips included. Each additional foot is only about $4. I rig these up on my rack and can heat most of the colonies for dirt cheap...plus they only run about 10watts or less per foot.

Again, be sure to install it correctly and cover it in foil tape! This is often overlooked, but essential for the well-being of the heat tape. I have a link with instructions in my How to Keep and Breed Roaches guide... I'll paste it below. Very useful, plus pictures!
Pro Exotics Reptiles, the Nation's finest captive bred Snakes and Monitors, your source for Infrared Thermometer, Temp Gun.

[fish4all]

Heather, if you don't mind, would you direct me to a picture of your setup and possibly a bit more detail. I keep my house at 72F all winter and I am thinking your setup might work really well for me. Even if it isn't perfect for me, the more information I gather the better.

[Heatheranne]

Merry Christmas to you guys also .

Oh, I forgot to mention...common sense really...I keep the heat lamp over the dry food side .

Have a good day everyone! Time to enjoy some Christmas breakfast with the family .

[Heatheranne]

I use a 100watt infared bulb with a dimmer lamp.

[Bruce]

I prefer the KISS method... Keep It Simple Stupid!!

Nothing fancy needs to be done with roaches I use a big plastic tote with a square hole cut in the lid, screen hot glued to the lid, and a heat lamp on a dimmer for heat. Fill with egg crates standing up so the frass (poop) falls to the bottom.

Cleaning! Remove egg crates. Bang against bucket until roaches are off. The babies at the bottom in the frass can be retrieved by putting an egg crate back in, and when they climb back up you just bang them into the bucket. You'll have some casualties, it's unavoidable. If your colony is reproducing as it should it shouldn't matter.

Keep the temps warm (88-92 is optimum breeding temps I've found) and plenty of food. Citrus fruits and banana's seem to be their favorite, which has enough water for them to thrive, however water gel should be offered if using dry foods such as cereal (they go nuts for Cheerios and monster cricket chow)

That's that!

[Heatheranne]

Sure... I just cleaned mine, so you'll be able to see well.

I have too many right now so it's quite crowded. If you're going to have more than 300, I'd recommend a 15 or 20 gallon tall. ($1 sale is going on at Petco right now)



I feed mine to my frogs when they molt because they are nice and soft.

[Heatheranne]

@ Bruce...

A few casualties, lol!... None...well, if your a goober like me and sift through the poo for hours to save them all, lol!!!

(Bruce sold me my starter colonies and taught me how to take care of mine.)

[Bruce]

@ Bruce...

A few casualties, lol!... None...well, if your a goober like me and sift through the poo for hours to save them all, lol!!!

(Bruce sold me my starter colonies and taught me how to take care of mine.)

Lol!!! I don't like sifting through poop, thank you very much

[Heatheranne]

Lol!!!!!

[fish4all]

Too funny you two. But I will likely sift through mine also. One to catch as many smaller ones as a I can but also to get them out so I can throw the frass in my composter. During winter months it may not matter as much because the cold would kill any stragglers but to have a few get in my recycle bin and start their own colony would be a disaster.

Heather, are you talking about 300 breeding adults or 300 roaches? And thank you for the Petco sales update.