Just alittle question

[ashleymonae1]

I have a 36x18x36 and I was wondering if I can house my pacman with my green tree frogs. The pacman is only at the lower level and the tree frogs only come down for water and food they stay in the upper levels of the terrarium. Is this safe to do or should I keep them separated. Also this book I got from a pet store said you can house tree frogs with other frogs and or Anoles if the terrarium is big enough is this a true fact. Thank you so much in advance.

[DeeDub]

LOL... Yes and keep a live video feed at all times at the pacman level so we can see when he eats the GTF....ok kidding obviously.

The answer is still yes, but your GTF will be eaten by your pac...100% gaurantee!

I would never tell someone what to do in a free country with thier frog, so the yes comes in part from my sick sarcasmic (yes, I just made that word up) attitude and also from my unwillingness to infringe on your right to make a choice in frog care.

[GrifTheGreat]

No! You Pacman will eat your tree frogs. Pacman frogs must be housed alone. They are highly cannibalistic and will even eat each other. Plus you risk cross contamination when mixing species since each individual species secrete their own toxins.

House them seperately.

[DeeDub]

LOL, beat ya!

[ashleymonae1]

Thank you so much for your input. I didn't know my baby pacman had a mean side. He just sits in one little spot all the time and when he does move its to get his food and to find another spot to snuggle into. I have lots of different animals but my pacman and my fire belly toads were gifts so I don't know much about them yet. I am learning new things each day about them.... thank u both very much.

[DeeDub]

Sorry for the joke Ash....I am a jerk sometimes....and you are very gracious. Good work and good luck with yer pacman. If you have questions just ask no matter what it is.....and be prepared for my good humored jokes....I liked it at least!

[ashleymonae1]

Thanks no problem with the jokes. I know all in good fun, I like it.

[DVirginiana]

Thanks for asking first! Much better to see a question like that than a thread about a frog injured or sick from being housed with another species

Even if the species aren't aggressive or can't eat other animals, it's never a good idea to house ANY reptiles/amphibians with other species (like anoles and treefrogs). It's almost impossible to set up a terrarium with the best conditions for both species at the same time. Also, even if it isn't toxic to humans, almost all frogs produce toxins on their skin that might harm other small animals, especially if they don't coexist in the wild. Sometimes just the stress of being confined around another species can kill them.
I have a similar conversation a lot when I talk to people about feeding options for frog-eating snakes and lizards. If the amphibian doesn't live in the same range as the snake in the wild, I say don't feed simply because of the toxins they can produce on their skin.

[lorenjas]

You are kidding right? You realize green tree frogs (and whites) have almost Identical terrarium requirement as anoles, along with long tailed Asian grass lizards. It would be incredibly easy to house these species together and if you get a fecal check to make sure none of the animals have parasites you run very little risk. Pacmans would obviously eat all of those so don't house one of those or any predatory animal with other animals capable of fitting in their mouth.

I do like the point you make about toxins and choosing animals from similar habitat locales, both great points and solid advice, although I would say they're more concerned with feeding than housing.

Also if anyone does try this, make sure to introduce species of the same age and make sure you start with babies. They are far more likely to cohabitate when introduced as babies. Theres even a PBS special about a zoo that houses a cheetah and yellow lab in the same enclosure and they're bonded lifelong partners (mating does not occur)

Thanks for asking first! Much better to see a question like that than a thread about a frog injured or sick from being housed with another species

Even if the species aren't aggressive or can't eat other animals, it's never a good idea to house ANY reptiles/amphibians with other species (like anoles and treefrogs). It's almost impossible to set up a terrarium with the best conditions for both species at the same time. Also, even if it isn't toxic to humans, almost all frogs produce toxins on their skin that might harm other small animals, especially if they don't coexist in the wild. Sometimes just the stress of being confined around another species can kill them.
I have a similar conversation a lot when I talk to people about feeding options for frog-eating snakes and lizards. If the amphibian doesn't live in the same range as the snake in the wild, I say don't feed simply because of the toxins they can produce on their skin.

[DVirginiana]

I am absolutely not kidding.

Yes, I do realize that green tree frogs, white's tree frogs, anoles, and goodness knows what else can have very similar basic terrarium requirements. The problem, especially with frogs, is the stress level. Even species that live side-by-side in the wild don't truly cohabit; they have a very unique niche that they exploit. Just because two frogs could potentially live on the same tree in the wild does not mean that they should be put into the same tank in captivity. Additionally most frogs are not social animals, and are certainly not sociable with other species in confined spaces. The behavioral stress from being in the presence of another species constantly is unhealthy and could cause a frog to become sick.

The few times I have seen cohabiting of species work out well is in areas warm enough for people to let larger reptiles roam a yard year-round. Even then, each individual (or at least each species group) typically has its own special housing and feeding area designed for its specific needs.

Going on to the point that I made about the toxins; it is not just for feeding. That is just the most clear-cut example I could think of. Why would a frog native to North America have any sort of tolerance for the chemicals present on an Australian frog's skin? They wouldn't. Since frogs absorb chemicals very easily through their skin, this could cause major issues.

Your example about the cheetah and dog has nothing to do with reptile husbandry. Those two were put together either for companionship or the lab was used as a surrogate. The reason the cheetah doesn't attack the dog for not acting like another cheetah is because it has an emotional attachment to the dog (and also because the cheetah is well fed). Reptiles don't form 'emotional attachments'. There's a reason people 'play with' their dog and 'handle' their snakes. I don't care how long you house different species together, the second one of them moves like food or makes a 'threatening' gesture (different species might see different gestures as threats) there will be a fight.

[lorenjas]

Its really easy to do safely with research, I'm just annoyed at how many people on the Internet give opinions without having done anything similar. With a little bit of research you can easily set up a comminal cohabitating tank. Combining many type of frogs is a bad idea, a white's would eat a green tree frog as well as a firebelly toad but it would likely pick up toxins from the toad. If you do set up a tank with other species try sticking to one frog type or at least choose 2 different types that occupy different areas of the tank (ground level terrestrial frog and an arboreal for example, that way food competition and territory battles don't concur as much / or much at all if your tank is large enough with many hiding spots. Obviously more animals means a lot larger space, the larger the space the less conflict you risk.

I see you point on toxins more clearly, and I agree with your statement, I just feel a tiny bit of research would Easily let someone know if an animal is toxic to another.

The lab and cheetah have quite a bit to do with it really, It's an example of interspecie cohabitation and how animals can go outside their normal family for companionship. They wereb inteoduced as birth and are rhe same age, no surrogacy there. I'll admit most amphibians / reptiles don't have nearly the same drive for companionship as mammals, but I'd you think my bearded dragon hasn't bonded to me and doesn't enjoy being held and played with well then I say you've either never owned one or didn't treat it right. Reptiles can and do form bonds with their owners, to varying degrees depending upon species.

I am absolutely not kidding.

Yes, I do realize that green tree frogs, white's tree frogs, anoles, and goodness knows what else can have very similar basic terrarium requirements. The problem, especially with frogs, is the stress level. Even species that live side-by-side in the wild don't truly cohabit; they have a very unique niche that they exploit. Just because two frogs could potentially live on the same tree in the wild does not mean that they should be put into the same tank in captivity. Additionally most frogs are not social animals, and are certainly not sociable with other species in confined spaces. The behavioral stress from being in the presence of another species constantly is unhealthy and could cause a frog to become sick.

The few times I have seen cohabiting of species work out well is in areas warm enough for people to let larger reptiles roam a yard year-round. Even then, each individual (or at least each species group) typically has its own special housing and feeding area designed for its specific needs.

Going on to the point that I made about the toxins; it is not just for feeding. That is just the most clear-cut example I could think of. Why would a frog native to North America have any sort of tolerance for the chemicals present on an Australian frog's skin? They wouldn't. Since frogs absorb chemicals very easily through their skin, this could cause major issues.

Your example about the cheetah and dog has nothing to do with reptile husbandry. Those two were put together either for companionship or the lab was used as a surrogate. The reason the cheetah doesn't attack the dog for not acting like another cheetah is because it has an emotional attachment to the dog (and also because the cheetah is well fed). Reptiles don't form 'emotional attachments'. There's a reason people 'play with' their dog and 'handle' their snakes. I don't care how long you house different species together, the second one of them moves like food or makes a 'threatening' gesture (different species might see different gestures as threats) there will be a fight.

[GrifTheGreat]

Its really easy to do safely with research, I'm just annoyed at how many people on the Internet give opinions without having done anything similar. With a little bit of research you can easily set up a comminal cohabitating tank. Combining many type of frogs is a bad idea, a white's would eat a green tree frog as well as a firebelly toad but it would likely pick up toxins from the toad. If you do set up a tank with other species try sticking to one frog type or at least choose 2 different types that occupy different areas of the tank (ground level terrestrial frog and an arboreal for example, that way food competition and territory battles don't concur as much / or much at all if your tank is large enough with many hiding spots. Obviously more animals means a lot larger space, the larger the space the less conflict you risk.

I see you point on toxins more clearly, and I agree with your statement, I just feel a tiny bit of research would Easily let someone know if an animal is toxic to another.

The lab and cheetah have quite a bit to do with it really, It's an example of interspecie cohabitation and how animals can go outside their normal family for companionship. They wereb inteoduced as birth and are rhe same age, no surrogacy there. I'll admit most amphibians / reptiles don't have nearly the same drive for companionship as mammals, but I'd you think my bearded dragon hasn't bonded to me and doesn't enjoy being held and played with well then I say you've either never owned one or didn't treat it right. Reptiles can and do form bonds with their owners, to varying degrees depending upon species.

It's common sence for anyone who has experience with Horned Frogs that they will eat the tree frogs. There is no safe way to house ANYTHING with a Pacman. Don't advise people to do something that they may regret later.

[DVirginiana]

Its really easy to do safely with research, I'm just annoyed at how many people on the Internet give opinions without having done anything similar. With a little bit of research you can easily set up a comminal cohabitating tank.

No, it is NOT easy to do safely. You could do this for years with no problem, but it is still a disaster waiting to happen. Reptiles do not understand the behaviors of other species, and as soon as the other species makes a 'wrong move' so to speak then it will illicit a predatory or defensive reaction.
I'll say the same thing I say to the geniuses who don't think they need to treat water for snakes; just because nothing bad has happened yet doesn't mean that it's not going to.

If you do set up a tank with other species try sticking to one frog type or at least choose 2 different types that occupy different areas of the tank (ground level terrestrial frog and an arboreal for example, that way food competition and territory battles don't concur as much / or much at all if your tank is large enough with many hiding spots. Obviously more animals means a lot larger space, the larger the space the less conflict you risk.

Do not recommend this to people. Just because two species can live on the same tree in the wild doesn't mean they can live in the same tank in captivity with no problems. If you had a very small number of frogs in a ceiling-height tank (I'm talking about the walk-in sort of tanks you usually only see at zoos or scientific centers) then that strategy may work. But there is literally NO WAY to make cohabitation work safely with the level of resources available to 99.9% of hobbyists. No typical tank is large enough to compensate for the stress of being confined with another species.
No matter how meticulous you are, there is no way to adequately mimic the niches and spatial separation of a natural ecosystem. I have done ecological research for over four years; I like to think I know what I'm talking about in that regard.

I see you point on toxins more clearly, and I agree with your statement, I just feel a tiny bit of research would Easily let someone know if an animal is toxic to another.

How many research papers have you seen analyzing the effects of white's tree frog skin secretions on the american green tree frog? None. No one would do that sort of research because those two species should NEVER come into contact with each other. What's more, this is not something you could tell from just housing them together for a week or two and watching to see if one gets sick. The effects may take a long time to manifest, or they may not be fatal, but that does not make it okay to put the animals at risk without any legitimate information on the subject (not stories from someone on a pirate mission to make their frogs friends with each other).

What's more, researching an individual animal's toxicity does no good. It has to do with what toxins they are and aren't evolved to handle. For example, there is a subset of garter snakes in the Pacific Northwest that can eat fire newts, which are known to be fatal to every other species they have been documented to come into contact with including humans. These snakes evolved alongside the newts, so they can handle that PARTICULAR toxin. However, the pacman (not known to be toxic to anything) is toxic to garter snakes. I cannot feed food to my snakes if I have offered it to my frog, because they will regurgitate anything that has touched her skin. Pacman secretions are so mild that they aren't KNOWN to be toxic to anything, but they can still be harmful to animals not specifically adapted to process them.
Point being, there is no way to 'research' this because odds are, there is no actual research on the effects of a particular toxin on a species that no one in their right mind would house them with.

The lab and cheetah have quite a bit to do with it really, It's an example of interspecie cohabitation and how animals can go outside their normal family for companionship. They wereb inteoduced as birth and are rhe same age, no surrogacy there.

Both of those animals are evolved to have long-term relationships with other animals. Dogs live in complex packs, and cheetahs form close bonds with their young that last up to two years. It is unlikely that either of them will attempt to kill the other because there is an emotional attachment there.
Reptiles do not have the neurological ability to form that sort of attachment. The overwhelming majority of them are solitary and come together only for resources and mating. Even those that prefer the company of their own species do not form attachments to individuals of their own species, they simply feel safer in a 'herd' environment.

I'll admit most amphibians / reptiles don't have nearly the same drive for companionship as mammals, but I'd you think my bearded dragon hasn't bonded to me and doesn't enjoy being held and played with well then I say you've either never owned one or didn't treat it right. Reptiles can and do form bonds with their owners, to varying degrees depending upon species.

You are anthropomorphizing your reptiles. My snakes enjoy my presence; why wouldn't they? I provide warmth and food. They trust me, so being handled provides a healthy, novel experience for my more social reptiles (garters are one of the species I mentioned that prefer 'herd' environments). I have an elderly blind one that recognizes me by smell and refuses to let anyone else handle him. My turtle will even become territorial over me, not wanting anyone else to come near.
However, I'm not under the impression that they would miss ME specifically if they never saw me again. They do not form social attachments in that way. If another person came in to provide them with the same care I do, they would not mourn me for a second. If it makes you feel better to think otherwise, then you are free to, but it isn't the case.

The reason humans can have these sorts of trusting relationships with reptiles is because we are able to modify our behavior to fit theirs. You wouldn't move suddenly around a hungry snake, or make a loud noise around a skittish frog. Reptiles' behavior is almost all hardwired; they cannot change it.
There are always people who think they've figured out something that people who have spend decades in the hobby and worked with dozens of species somehow overlooked, and they will eventually realize that there is a reason no one recommends interspecies cohabitation. Unfortunately it's their reptiles that get the short end of the stick.

[DVirginiana]

WOW that got longer than I realized.

[Gold]

Im just glad you asked someone before doing it.

[GrifTheGreat]

DV has pretty much stated everything I didn't have time to. Everything she said is true and solid.

[Heatheranne]

I agree and have had experience in healing frogs housed with lizards...not a good idea.

Pacmans can eat decently sized prey in just a few swallows as adults.

I too am glad you checked first .

We have to remember that even though these animals can coexist in the wild, we are talking about aquariums of limited size where in their true natural environments there are several of thousands of miles to move about, relocate, and shelter themselves if needed.

[lorenjas]

Grif could you please read that again and quote me where I say it's okay to house pacmans with other frogs.

It's common sence for anyone who has experience with Horned Frogs that they will eat the tree frogs. There is no safe way to house ANYTHING with a Pacman. Don't advise people to do something that they may regret later.

[GrifTheGreat]

Grif could you please read that again and quote me where I say it's okay to house pacmans with other frogs.

It was misinterpreted. My appologies.

[ashleymonae1]

Well thank you all for your advice. I am not housing them together.