Moss: the other substrate.

[MatthewM1]

Ha ha, well to each his own. The molding/decomposing could be another benefit - visual cue that it needs changing!

But by allowing it to mold or start to go bad before you change it you are culturing who knows what in your frogs terrarium. People should be proactive and change substrate before decomposition occurs regardless of what type it is.

I have the same opinion as deedub on this one. Who doesn't want a big dirty insect annihilator

[motiszm]

But by allowing it to mold or start to go bad before you change it you are culturing who knows what in your frogs terrarium. People should be proactive and change substrate before decomposition occurs regardless of what type it is.

Sometimes I wonder if keeping a completely sterile cage is even desirable. Letting them sit in their own filth is obviously a bad thing (red leg is no good), spot cleaning needs to be done and the whole substrate needs to be changed out frequently, but is a bit of decomposition a bad thing? After all, these guys burrow in decomposing leaf litter in the wild.

This is kind of a ridiculous example, but I guess you could relate it to parenting styles. Some moms sanitize their children's hands after they go outside or touch anything, others let their kids get dirty and eat things off the ground. Which of these groups of kids gets sick more often?

By hyper sanitizing are we robbing our frogs of beneficial bacteria and other microbes and making them more prone to disease and infection?

[DVirginiana]

I'm not gonna attack anyone for using sphagnum as long as they tong feed or feed in another container, but all of the benefits you mentioned are really benefits for the keeper rather than the frog (less frequent misting, frog looks prettier, ect). I just prefer the cocofiber for mine. I also feel like them being able to get the substrate closely packed against them helps with temp regulation.

Sometimes I wonder if keeping a completely sterile cage is even desirable. Letting them sit in their own filth is obviously a bad thing (red leg is no good), spot cleaning needs to be done and the whole substrate needs to be changed out frequently, but is a bit of decomposition a bad thing? After all, these guys burrow in decomposing leaf litter in the wild.

This is kind of a ridiculous example, but I guess you could relate it to parenting styles. Some moms sanitize their children's hands after they go outside or touch anything, others let their kids get dirty and eat things off the ground. Which of these groups of kids gets sick more often?

By hyper sanitizing are we robbing our frogs of beneficial bacteria and other microbes and making them more prone to disease and infection?

A typical frog's tank is far from sanitary. They urinate all the time, people allow crickets or roaches to roam over the substrate for minutes at a time, and tiny bits of their shed skin are probably all over the place and we just can't see them. Add on top of that the temp and humidity are ideal for most bacteria. Cleaning tanks doesn't keep them sterile, it keeps the bacteria under control.

Decomposition is bad. It doesn't happen if bacteria aren't present, and it takes a LOT to decompose coco-fiber.

[motiszm]

I wonder if sphagnum could be grown and used as a living substrate? That might be sweet.

[GrifTheGreat]

Coco Fiber is fungal and mold resistant which is one of the main reasons that it's ideal for frogs. Sure they stay cleaner on moss, but pieces can be ingested even when tong fed. Nobody takes into consideration that when their skin becomes clammie or slightly dryer it becomes sticky and the moss will cling to their skin. Now once the frog begins to shed it ingests the moss with the shed. The same happens with coco fiber just that one is less detrimental to their digestive tract than the other. You can't watch them constantly waiting or them to shed so that you can prevent them from ingesting the moss. It is excellent for humidity and moisture, but must be changed far more often and mold will grow very easily on the moss.

Sanitary is good, but too clean can be bad. If they never become exposed to small amounts of bacteria they never build up their immune system which is essential. With out a good immune system then they will become ill more easily and especially so when stressed. Their is one serious issue with overly wet moss. It completely obsorbs all urine and ammonia making the frog more prone to Toxing Out Syndrome(Toxicosis). Seen it more than once. Coco fiber absorbs the urine but also works like actual soil and disributes the ammonia throughout the lower sections of the substrate like haveing for a drainage layer which I will add that if a drainage layer is present beneath the substrate it will prolong the substrates life and keeps the ammonia from their urine away from the frog by allowing it to drain into tje drainage layer.

Anyway changing Coco Fiber once a month is best and mixing the substrate up once a week to allow air to circulate into the lower substrate level will keep the substrate fresh longer and keep the frog from just sitting in its urine all the time. I place terrarium carpet beneath the substrate so that there is a buffer between the frog and the glass. This also keeps them from sitting in their urine by keeping the frog up off the glass where excess moisture will settle with the urine.

[motiszm]

Coco Fiber is fungal and mold resistant which is one of the main reasons that it's ideal for frogs. Sure they stay cleaner on moss, but pieces can be ingested even when tong fed. Nobody takes into consideration that when their skin becomes clammie or slightly dryer it becomes sticky and the moss will cling to their skin. Now once the frog begins to shed it ingests the moss with the shed. The same happens with coco fiber just that one is less detrimental to their digestive tract than the other. You can't watch them constantly waiting or them to shed so that you can prevent them from ingesting the moss. It is excellent for humidity and moisture, but must be changed far more often and mold will grow very easily on the moss.

Sanitary is good, but too clean can be bad. If they never become exposed to small amounts of bacteria they never build up their immune system which is essential. With out a good immune system then they will become ill more easily and especially so when stressed. Their is one serious issue with overly wet moss. It completely obsorbs all urine and ammonia making the frog more prone to Toxing Out Syndrome(Toxicosis). Seen it more than once. Coco fiber absorbs the urine but also works like actual soil and disributes the ammonia throughout the lower sections of the substrate like heading for a drainage layer which I will add that if a drainage layer is present beneath the substrate it will prolong the substrates life and keeps the ammonia from their urine away from the frog by allowing it to drain into tje drainage layer.

Anyway changing Coco Fiber once a month is best and mixing the substrate up once a week to allow air to circulate into the lower substrate level will keep the substrate fresh longer and keep the frog from just sitting in its urine all the time. I place terrarium carpet beneath the substrate so that there is a buffer between the frog and the glass. This also keeps them from sitting in their urine by keeping the frog up off the glass where excess moisture will settle with the urine.

Thanks Grif, very informative post. I like the idea of a drainage layer! Now I'm thinking about adding a drainage layer in each tub of my fancy wal-mart rack system But really I should keep studying for my finals. School is the bane of my existence sometimes.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks Grif, very informative post. I like the idea of a drainage layer! Now I'm thinking about adding a drainage layer in each tub of my fancy wal-mart rack system But really I should keep studying for my finals. School is the bane of my existence sometimes.

You're welcome

Always be sure to use something to separate the drainage layer from he actual substrate. It can make Coco Fiber last 1.5 months depending on the frog's activity. Pacman Frogs pee ALOT!! Should always mix it up and smell the substrate. Good Coco Fiber smells like fresh dirt.

I'm not trying to change the way anyone cares for their frog by the way. Just throwing some info out there.

[MatthewM1]

I know most people use hydro balls for a drainage system, are there any other methods that work well?