Moss: the other substrate.

[motiszm]

I think it's time for some healthy debate . I propose that for tong fed (this distinction is important) horned frogs moss is superior to coco fiber and foam as a substrate.

Four reasons:
It holds water like none other, keeping the tank nice and humid.
It doesn't cling all over the frog, keeping them nice and pretty to show off and is more natural and requires much less work than foam.
Just as easy for the frog to burrow into as coco fiber.
It comes in big bags for cheap at Home Depot.

What do you guys think?

[DeeDub]

It molds; and decomposes which creates a science project in your frog's cage. BOOM!!!!



Plus, I like my frogs dirty!! :-)

[motiszm]

It molds; and decomposes which creates a science project in your frog's cage. BOOM!!!!



Plus, I like my frogs dirty!! :-)

Ha ha, well to each his own. The molding/decomposing could be another benefit - visual cue that it needs changing!

[MatthewM1]

Ha ha, well to each his own. The molding/decomposing could be another benefit - visual cue that it needs changing!

But by allowing it to mold or start to go bad before you change it you are culturing who knows what in your frogs terrarium. People should be proactive and change substrate before decomposition occurs regardless of what type it is.

I have the same opinion as deedub on this one. Who doesn't want a big dirty insect annihilator

[motiszm]

But by allowing it to mold or start to go bad before you change it you are culturing who knows what in your frogs terrarium. People should be proactive and change substrate before decomposition occurs regardless of what type it is.

Sometimes I wonder if keeping a completely sterile cage is even desirable. Letting them sit in their own filth is obviously a bad thing (red leg is no good), spot cleaning needs to be done and the whole substrate needs to be changed out frequently, but is a bit of decomposition a bad thing? After all, these guys burrow in decomposing leaf litter in the wild.

This is kind of a ridiculous example, but I guess you could relate it to parenting styles. Some moms sanitize their children's hands after they go outside or touch anything, others let their kids get dirty and eat things off the ground. Which of these groups of kids gets sick more often?

By hyper sanitizing are we robbing our frogs of beneficial bacteria and other microbes and making them more prone to disease and infection?

[DVirginiana]

I'm not gonna attack anyone for using sphagnum as long as they tong feed or feed in another container, but all of the benefits you mentioned are really benefits for the keeper rather than the frog (less frequent misting, frog looks prettier, ect). I just prefer the cocofiber for mine. I also feel like them being able to get the substrate closely packed against them helps with temp regulation.

Sometimes I wonder if keeping a completely sterile cage is even desirable. Letting them sit in their own filth is obviously a bad thing (red leg is no good), spot cleaning needs to be done and the whole substrate needs to be changed out frequently, but is a bit of decomposition a bad thing? After all, these guys burrow in decomposing leaf litter in the wild.

This is kind of a ridiculous example, but I guess you could relate it to parenting styles. Some moms sanitize their children's hands after they go outside or touch anything, others let their kids get dirty and eat things off the ground. Which of these groups of kids gets sick more often?

By hyper sanitizing are we robbing our frogs of beneficial bacteria and other microbes and making them more prone to disease and infection?

A typical frog's tank is far from sanitary. They urinate all the time, people allow crickets or roaches to roam over the substrate for minutes at a time, and tiny bits of their shed skin are probably all over the place and we just can't see them. Add on top of that the temp and humidity are ideal for most bacteria. Cleaning tanks doesn't keep them sterile, it keeps the bacteria under control.

Decomposition is bad. It doesn't happen if bacteria aren't present, and it takes a LOT to decompose coco-fiber.

[motiszm]

I wonder if sphagnum could be grown and used as a living substrate? That might be sweet.

[GrifTheGreat]

Coco Fiber is fungal and mold resistant which is one of the main reasons that it's ideal for frogs. Sure they stay cleaner on moss, but pieces can be ingested even when tong fed. Nobody takes into consideration that when their skin becomes clammie or slightly dryer it becomes sticky and the moss will cling to their skin. Now once the frog begins to shed it ingests the moss with the shed. The same happens with coco fiber just that one is less detrimental to their digestive tract than the other. You can't watch them constantly waiting or them to shed so that you can prevent them from ingesting the moss. It is excellent for humidity and moisture, but must be changed far more often and mold will grow very easily on the moss.

Sanitary is good, but too clean can be bad. If they never become exposed to small amounts of bacteria they never build up their immune system which is essential. With out a good immune system then they will become ill more easily and especially so when stressed. Their is one serious issue with overly wet moss. It completely obsorbs all urine and ammonia making the frog more prone to Toxing Out Syndrome(Toxicosis). Seen it more than once. Coco fiber absorbs the urine but also works like actual soil and disributes the ammonia throughout the lower sections of the substrate like haveing for a drainage layer which I will add that if a drainage layer is present beneath the substrate it will prolong the substrates life and keeps the ammonia from their urine away from the frog by allowing it to drain into tje drainage layer.

Anyway changing Coco Fiber once a month is best and mixing the substrate up once a week to allow air to circulate into the lower substrate level will keep the substrate fresh longer and keep the frog from just sitting in its urine all the time. I place terrarium carpet beneath the substrate so that there is a buffer between the frog and the glass. This also keeps them from sitting in their urine by keeping the frog up off the glass where excess moisture will settle with the urine.

[motiszm]

Coco Fiber is fungal and mold resistant which is one of the main reasons that it's ideal for frogs. Sure they stay cleaner on moss, but pieces can be ingested even when tong fed. Nobody takes into consideration that when their skin becomes clammie or slightly dryer it becomes sticky and the moss will cling to their skin. Now once the frog begins to shed it ingests the moss with the shed. The same happens with coco fiber just that one is less detrimental to their digestive tract than the other. You can't watch them constantly waiting or them to shed so that you can prevent them from ingesting the moss. It is excellent for humidity and moisture, but must be changed far more often and mold will grow very easily on the moss.

Sanitary is good, but too clean can be bad. If they never become exposed to small amounts of bacteria they never build up their immune system which is essential. With out a good immune system then they will become ill more easily and especially so when stressed. Their is one serious issue with overly wet moss. It completely obsorbs all urine and ammonia making the frog more prone to Toxing Out Syndrome(Toxicosis). Seen it more than once. Coco fiber absorbs the urine but also works like actual soil and disributes the ammonia throughout the lower sections of the substrate like heading for a drainage layer which I will add that if a drainage layer is present beneath the substrate it will prolong the substrates life and keeps the ammonia from their urine away from the frog by allowing it to drain into tje drainage layer.

Anyway changing Coco Fiber once a month is best and mixing the substrate up once a week to allow air to circulate into the lower substrate level will keep the substrate fresh longer and keep the frog from just sitting in its urine all the time. I place terrarium carpet beneath the substrate so that there is a buffer between the frog and the glass. This also keeps them from sitting in their urine by keeping the frog up off the glass where excess moisture will settle with the urine.

Thanks Grif, very informative post. I like the idea of a drainage layer! Now I'm thinking about adding a drainage layer in each tub of my fancy wal-mart rack system But really I should keep studying for my finals. School is the bane of my existence sometimes.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks Grif, very informative post. I like the idea of a drainage layer! Now I'm thinking about adding a drainage layer in each tub of my fancy wal-mart rack system But really I should keep studying for my finals. School is the bane of my existence sometimes.

You're welcome

Always be sure to use something to separate the drainage layer from he actual substrate. It can make Coco Fiber last 1.5 months depending on the frog's activity. Pacman Frogs pee ALOT!! Should always mix it up and smell the substrate. Good Coco Fiber smells like fresh dirt.

I'm not trying to change the way anyone cares for their frog by the way. Just throwing some info out there.

[MatthewM1]

I know most people use hydro balls for a drainage system, are there any other methods that work well?

[mikesfrogs]

I wouldnt use moss. I tried that way already. It may be easy with one or two frogs but too many problems with it for me.

[Frogger32]

I won't put anything with my animals that could possibly hurt them. Tongs or not.

[GrifTheGreat]

My last post was supposed to say that I'm NOT trying to change how people keep their frogs. Lol! I'm really not, just sharing info.

[frogsanity12]

I'm a big paper towel fan. I've tried everything. I do spot changes all the time (every morning). I go through about 16 extra large rolls every 8 weeks (about $36) I give them a good spray once a day and they all have good size water dishes approx $0.15 each at home depot. One thing about this hobby...the costs can run away. I always try to keep my costs down.

[Herpguy]

I honestly believe that setups are half the enjoyment of owning herps. When I was younger I focused on having as many animals in as simplistic setups as possible. Over time, I've come to love having planted setups that mimic wild conditions. Cork or foam backgrounds make it great for planting where horned frogs won't destroy them. It really makes the setup much more fun to watch as a whole. I have a 29 gal viv setup with over a grand put into it, and I put two RETFs in there just for fun, they love sleeping in bromeliads that they would encounter in the wild, and I have NEVER seen them sleep on the glass. I tried paper towels years ago, but I just felt bad for the frogs. It just seemed so completely alien from anything they would ever encounter naturally. Plus it was just boring. To each his own, but it seems a lot of people get more frogs just for the sake of having more frogs.

[DeeDub]

Yep, I get outta control with my setups sometimes. My lizards have pretty decent setups, but I've put some money into my Pyxie tank.

So far my pacs are pretty simple. the Money I spent on those comes from the digital Hydro/term temp humidity controller (70 bucks).

[Lija]

I honestly believe that setups are half the enjoyment of owning herps. When I was younger I focused on having as many animals in as simplistic setups as possible. Over time, I've come to love having planted setups that mimic wild conditions. Cork or foam backgrounds make it great for planting where horned frogs won't destroy them. It really makes the setup much more fun to watch as a whole. I have a 29 gal viv setup with over a grand put into it, and I put two RETFs in there just for fun, they love sleeping in bromeliads that they would encounter in the wild, and I have NEVER seen them sleep on the glass. I tried paper towels years ago, but I just felt bad for the frogs. It just seemed so completely alien from anything they would ever encounter naturally. Plus it was just boring. To each his own, but it seems a lot of people get more frogs just for the sake of having more frogs.

exactly! for me as well it is about nice set ups as naturalistic as possible for species that have. I'm using papertowels only in hospital set ups, but to keep constantly i would feel bad for the frog for not being able to burrow and being handled each day due to cleaning. Actually i would feel very sorry for myself having to put more time into cleaning and changing cages every day, the less work the better, that is why everything is on timers and conrollers