Need some help....Impaction

[DVirginiana]

Hoppity, I am well aware that gluten allergy is not the same thing as an impaction. I was making an analogy that something that is a problem for a very small percentage of the population is no reason for the majority to avoid it out of paranoia. If this person had been feeding mealworms or excessive amounts of pinkies, then diet would have been a major discussion point. People on this forum (in my experience) are not the type to tiptoe around someone's feelings when tough advice can help the frogs. The reason no one else was talking about that is because dubias HAVE NOT been documented to cause impaction.

I think popcorn is a good analogy here. Corn is a common human staple food. Yes, some people (my father for instance, who has had major surgery for diverticulitis and cannot eat small grains) may suffer severe infection, pain, or death from eating it. For these people, there are specialized diets. However, saying that it is bad parenting for someone to buy their child popcorn at a movie because of this is a bit ridiculous.

Roaches have low risk and the reward of a safe, home-bred food supply and added variety to the diet (which nearly everyone will agree is beneficial). If you can find any information that dubia roaches are an unsafe feeder, rather than just personal opinion, I will gladly revise my stance. My frog has neurological issues that seem to affect her GI tract. However, I wouldn't recommend my restrictive and paranoid care routine to others, because it would be completely unnecessary for most frogs.

It is both unfair and inaccurate to compare feeding roaches to sub-par or uncaring husbandry, especially without any hard facts to back it up. Most of the people on this forum do not need someone to speak for their frogs, as they are already providing good care, and are willing to listen to others to keep improving it. Again, I am NOT criticizing your care routine. Just saying, there is no call for accusing everyone who feeds roaches of giving their animals sub-par food, when you have no actual evidence to support this.

[DeeDub]

Lol...isn't that the guy wanting to feed spaghetti to his frog?

Anyway, just feed nymphs to Rhino. She's just a little one still. The last roach I fed was about an inch. It didn't cause the impaction. I noticed the impaction as soon as she ate the roach.

BTW, she's doing well. Fed her a couple earth worm I cut in half. She was a hungry little monster too.

[DeeDub]

Just FYI hop, roaches are one of the most nutritious inverts you can feed. Anything you had to say lost all credibility when I read that you would give your frog a prune. Not to mentioned the spaghetti....lol

I dust with Miner-all and Vit-all. Some of the best supplements you can give to your pets.

[Sunshine]

Just FYI hop, roaches are one of the most nutritious inverts you can feed. Anything you had to say lost all credibility when I read that you would give your frog a prune. Not to mentioned the spaghetti....lol

LOL!!!

[DeeDub]

I like your avatar Sherry. I was telling a gal I work with about my frogs and mentioned I hadn't named any of my Pyxies yet. I forget that frogs name but she said it, then sang the song he sings....it was really creepy. Haha.

[Sunshine]

Lol! Thank you! I love those old cartoons! His name is Michigan J. Frog. And I like his song! It's funny!

[Hoppity100]

Thanks for writing with your viewpoints. No, I'm not paranoid, never was. I'm writing about giving frogs food that contributes to the impaction process. No, just because popcorn bothers people with diverticulitis or osis does not mean you withhold it from children at the theatre. You're talking about it in a different way. Corn being a staple food may be true but it can be avoided and replaced with something else. It means that if you have that condition and you know this food has the potential to cause you distress, you avoid it. I take my own snacks to the theatre. Corn is eaten and digested thru chewing kernals. But I chew my food, frogs don't, they gulp food whole. I had a dog that died from eating food whole, ended up with an obstruction, had abd exploratory, suffered post-op, had long recovery, died from complications, long story. There is a difference between eating kernals of corn or an entire ear. Like I mentioned, what would happen to me if I ate an entire ear? With all the curves in our intestines and how they are tightly packed in our bellies, that ear of corn doesn't have a chance of passing.

I'm happy to read about these roaches, and what is the neurological problem with your frog? How did you discover it? After reading posts, I can see the people on the forum care about their pets. It shows interest and enthusiasm. The descriptions of set ups tell me what effort they put into their frogs' care. I have done the same. But, even though frogs need a variety of food, I consider things like: size of food, hard or soft, freshness, calcium dust or vitamin supplements, amount, type of insect, etc. I'm thinking these frogs would love flies except they would be difficult to house and catch.

As for husbandry: my frogs and husband have a different diet, husband chews his food and frogs don't. Husband complains and frogs don't. Husband gets softer food than frogs that eat roaches and crickets. Humans can judge before they eat, frogs can't. Frogs eat without too much thinking first, they don't debate their diet ahead of time. They eat when they see food. My stray cats do the same thing. No, I don't know why you thought I was paranoid. I guess I like things that are logical and reasonable. Roaches may have beneficial nutrients, that's not my debate, frogs do eat insects in the wild and some digest ok while others don't. If you read my collection of data/facts about my husband, you'd need to lie down. Well, you'd need a pitcher of maragritas first. Long story here, too.

I did not mean to be overly critical or demanding. I meant to bring this topic to the attention of other owners. Maybe they'd consider a different type of food or vitamin supplement. Especially the person who asked if they should keep their new frog in a cage or tank. This person should not have a frog if they have to ask that question. And, by looking at pictures of set ups: the tank or terrariums are decorated just fine, its the size of water dishes I see. I wonder if those pets have enough water, moisture, and humidity. A fogger is a great idea and anyone who goes to that trouble really cares. My tank will never need one. A terrarium should not need one if it is properly set up. A fogger I can see is especially beneficial in a household without a humidifier during winter months. Winter here can be so harsh that I already have a plan on what to do with my tank. I did not mean to elaborate so much. I tend to want to prevent accidents/hazards from happening. Oh, I have someone here who does not recognize himself in dangerous and risky situations. I have to for him. But, if you want, I am interested in knowing about your frog and his neurological problem and how you take precautions for him. Thanks for writing back with your ideas, both of our viewpoints can actually help people reading all this. Often things don't change unless someone speaks up. I tend to speak for all types of animals, it is the nature of me doing this, had pets all my life and helped other people save their pets. Have rescued pets too many times.

[Heatheranne]

Dubia roaches are actually really nutritious and much more than crickets. Crickets also pose impaction risks. The best thing to do is to vary their diet. A balanced diet will help to keep things moving through normally. Monitoring your frog, their feces, and their belly fullness can prevent many problems.

If your baby has a right sided belly lump, then he is full and needs to poop. It would be wise to not feed that day and wait for him to go. When we have full bellies we get bloated and crampy in which our body warns us we need to have a bowel movement. Not too many people would want to eat until resolved. Our pacs do the same, most of the time. Bad thing is, as predatory amphibians, movement of their food is when they strike so they may occasionally eat even when they're too full. I'm sure everyone already knows this, just thought I'd mention.

Roaches are fine to feed. Their "meat" to shell ratio is much higher than a cricket. Do dubias pose an impaction risk? Yep, but no more than a cricket. And if you're worried about constipation, then you can feed the freshly molted ones. They are soft and squishy .

My frogs' diets are rotated with crickets, dubias, and night crawlers. I gut load both the crickets and the dubias, and of course use mvi and calcium/vita D supplements. I also do weekly to biweekly honey soaks and regular soaks every couple days. I just set them in their water bowls. They often stay in for a bit and seem to like it.

You should start a random post about what people feed their pacs just to get some comparisons .

[Hoppity100]

Thanks for writing with your viewpoint. Yeah, the cricket thing is bothersome when I see the large boney ones with those folded up legs that resemble sticks. That is just as bad. I am not fond of giving mine crickets unless they are small and young. Whether roaches and crickets have nutrients is not what I question so much, its their size and structure. I would not offer someone peanut brittle if they had no teeth, likewise a ribeye steak. I don't see what's wrong with dusting roaches in fiber powder first, maybe that would help the frog. I'm still trying to help frogs/toads when they can't. Maybe their meat is good, no question, its their size, frogs can't chew like we can, shells would be slower to digest and have a better chance of impacting, constipating, blockage.

I don't eat food that is too big, too hard, or if I can't chew it first. People chew then swallow. Frogs just gulp and swallow. Even flies bred indoors seem more reasonable to give. I like your honey and soaking idea. When you have inactivity, curled up intestines like they are in our bellies, and something too big to fit, its like trying to squueze an idaho potato down your kitchen drain. I've had digestive complaints same as frogs and its not painful. I know to avoid it next time I eat. I still feel for a frog/toad that has to experience several days of cramping, pain, buldging abdomen. This is not fun.

[MatthewM1]

They may not chew or completely digest the chitin but it does get broken down in their digestive tract to an extent. It's not like they are passing a whole shell that looks like a roach with the insides sucked out of it

[Hoppity100]

Thanks for explaining, ...any parts of a shell I question though. I mean, I can't picture one being digested with any ease. Gosh, it must hurt to an extent being passed. Next time I swallow an eggplant or avocado whole, I'll let you know how I'm doing. Before I do that, I'll write first. I'm looking out for frogs, not telling anyone what to do, but to reconsider feeding these roaches. Roaches are normally so hard the only way to kill them is with a hammer,.. that's if you can catch them first. I ran over a roach once with my car and that thing kept crawling! I think they are the last bugs to survive a nuclear tragedy. They also resemble peanuts, actually too much. I still eat peanuts, but now that I think about it, a roach with salt would be too easy to mistake for a peanut. Gotta sign off and visit the pet store..I need a new gravel vac for my fish tank. Later...

[MatthewM1]

Frogs digestive tracks have adapted and evolved over thousands of years to digest whole prey, and ours have not. a human eating a whole avocado is nothing like a frog eating a whole roach. And from my understanding dubia exoskeletons are softer than many other species of roach

[DeeDub]

Thanks for explaining, ...any parts of a shell I question though. I mean, I can't picture one being digested with any ease. Gosh, it must hurt to an extent being passed. Next time I swallow an eggplant or avocado whole, I'll let you know how I'm doing. Before I do that, I'll write first. I'm looking out for frogs, not telling anyone what to do, but to reconsider feeding these roaches. Roaches are normally so hard the only way to kill them is with a hammer,.. that's if you can catch them first. I ran over a roach once with my car and that thing kept crawling! I think they are the last bugs to survive a nuclear tragedy. They also resemble peanuts, actually too much. I still eat peanuts, but now that I think about it, a roach with salt would be too easy to mistake for a peanut. Gotta sign off and visit the pet store..I need a new gravel vac for my fish tank. Later...

The whole idea of roaches or crickets being detrimental is moronic. Why are we even having this debate? These frogs are not fragile little creatures. They are super hearty and can deal with alot. That doesn't mean we test thier limits. I am all for babying them. I enjoy doing it. All of your "imagine me swallowing a water mellon, eggplant, corn cob" analogies have nothing to do with these frogs. Read what someone else is telling you. Maybe you will learn something. They are designed to eat prey that is large; they are designed to eat chitinous insects; they don't eat spagetti or prunes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW, who the h e l l kills roaches with a hammer? Have you ever seen a roach you idiot?

Hoppity, you are not qualified to give anyone advice. That is clearly evident in almost everything you post on any thread on this forum. You say you want to help other people. Stop giving subjective, nonobjective, illogical advice. I can't beleive the c r a p that I read on this forum that you have posted (that goes for the most part unanswered by those in the know). Your "Help" is one of the most detrimental things a new owner or potential owner could read. I don't know if you intentionally post things to be controversial (trolling) or are really just not very smart.

Bad husbandry practices getting propagated by blow hard, psuedo expert, internet cowboys like you are the biggest health risk to our captive frogs. Stop passing your B.S. conjecture to others. Why haven't the Mods taught this guy/girl some sense? Isn't that your role here? I know we need to be civil, cooperative, supportive, nice etc. but to what extent? If we are going to pick our battles to remain civil, then lets start with this issue. STOP LETTING PEOPLE GIVE OUT RETARDED ADVICE!!! You can't limit what people can say, just don't let them go on and on without a reply from you. PLEASE KEEP US ON TRACK! CORRECT POOR HUSBANDRY ADVICE GIVEN OUT BY OTHERS! I know that Husbandry practices vary, and that there will be some opinion related practices, but for the most part a little reminding nudge (slap) from the Mods in the right direction will solve most issues.

Now I digress....give me my punishment for injecting a little common sense into this 'debate' above...lol Or don't and realize that a little tough love can go a long way to reaching much needed clarity in a debate oriented, opinion riddled social media site such as this.

[Heatheranne]

Okay guys... Understandable, but lets try and keep it polite.

Hoppity, these frogs, like others, and even ourselves, produce enzymes and acids for digestion which break down parts of their food. Try dumping hydrochloride acid on foods and see what happens. The shells of roaches can easily be broken. Their backs are fairly soft except in the elder roaches, who have a bit tougher shell. The juveniles are quite squooshy in fact. Either way, roaches are actually not as hard to digest as you think and are quite healthy for them.

Deedub, I understand your concerns and see that you do have good education of your frogs and their health. Please share your education pleasantly. I feel your frustrations, though we wish to keep our forum friendly. Teach vs. reprimand...

Thanks!

[Hoppity100]

Could be, yes frogs in the wild eat all sorts of insects. Its the impaction I've been concerned about and other people who agree about shell, chitin, boney parts from large crickets, too. Read about consequences of impaction and waiting around to see if frog poos. I think the owners are waiting around to see if frog lives.

[DeeDub]

Okay guys... Understandable, but lets try and keep it polite.

Hoppity, these frogs, like others, and even ourselves, produce enzymes and acids for digestion which break down parts of their food. Try dumping hydrochloride acid on foods and see what happens. The shells of roaches can easily be broken. Their backs are fairly soft except in the elder roaches, who have a bit tougher shell. The juveniles are quite squooshy in fact. Either way, roaches are actually not as hard to digest as you think and are quite healthy for them.

Deedub, I understand your concerns and see that you do have good education of your frogs and their health. Please share your education pleasantly. I feel your frustrations, though we wish to keep our forum friendly. Teach vs. reprimand...

Thanks!

WILCO, thanks.

[Hoppity100]

I hope dubia skeletons are softer, apparently they are popular to feed. What about digesting the roach whole including chitin? That stuff is hard like our fingernails, ....I never would have thought this was so risky, until I read about people watching their frogs deal with an "impaction." Now I wonder if same people know about constipation vs impaction vs bowel obstruction vs proplapse vs perforation vs infection vs gangrene? Wanted to mention something this important. People have found these roaches are easy to maintain and breed, but, that's beside the point.

[Hoppity100]

Well, softer is better. What happens to the remains of this shell while in intestines? Yep, I'm making sure I have fiber powder here.

[Hoppity100]

Oh, forgot to mention how thin a bowel wall is and if its made thinner by repeated impactions then frog will die from that. He will have perforation, peritonitis, then death.

[DeeDub]

Well, softer is better. What happens to the remains of this shell while in intestines? Yep, I'm making sure I have fiber powder here.

Any fiber powder you use will be incompatible with the digestive tract and further complicate any digestive issues. A frog's digestive system is not made to break down vegetable matter i.e. spagetti<<<<<< Teaching