He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Hey everyone, great to find a place like this.
So, my Pac-Man (Tucker), is going on about a year old now, and so far he has hardly grown at all.
These two pictures were from when I got him about a year ago. He has grown only a little and is just about the same size today. His color hasn't changed either, and still appears relatively healthy looking. Also, I try not to handle him when I don't need to, so the pic of him on the desk isn't how I typically treat him. Just FYI. All of the dried mealworms were just there in that picture as well, and aren't usually crowding his space.
About his enclosures: He lived in a small cirlce-ish plastic tank with moss and coconut husk for the first 6 months I had him (the thing on the top in the below picture). Recently, I moved him to a larger 10 gallon tank with plantation soil and no moss. The plantation soil is about 2in deep. It is much larger than his previous home, but he still hasn't really grown a lot since. I have a 40 watt light lamp on a timer, and keep it decently humid I did used to have an under tank heater, but I unplugged it a few weeks ago after reading some threads on this forum.
Recently (past month or so), he has gotten into the habit of completely burying himself, sometimes all the way down to the glass bottom. I'm not sure if this is a normal hibernation thing, but I doubt he can dig himself out, and thus cannot eat or stay properly hydrated. I've had to dig around and get him up several times after not seeing him for 5 or more days.
Feeding: He ate mostly crickets at first. I tried to dust calcium dust about twice a week, and they also drink calcium enriched gel chunks. I've recently started him on decent sized mealworms. He isn't usually very successful at eating on his own though. He doesn't go thru the crickets on his own very quickly, and I usually have to feed him myself. The mealworms are in a little dish, but he won't go over and eat them himself because they never seem to disappear while I'm gone. When I do feed him manually however, he will usually chomp lively at them and eat a decent amount.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAIR9...1&feature=plcp
This is him at about 6 months old (still hasn't grown much since then). Pretty adorable if I say so myself, but it's supposed to show how he at least tries to eat sometimes, and isn't very good at it.
TL;DR, two main questions. 1) Is it bad that he isn't eating as much as I would think he should, and thus why he has barely grown? 2) is it okay the he is burying himself so much and so deeply?
Thanks for any help
Mike
Last edited by locomike1219; November 13th, 2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason: edited for grammar and typos
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Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Can you post the answers to the 'trouble in the enclosure' sticky? Just for info on his humidity and temps and all.
As for the mealworms, these have a lot of chitin in their exoskeletons and are difficult to digest and can cause impaction. Stick with crickets. Dubia roaches are also a good food. My favorite is nightcrawlers; you can cut them into appropriately sized pieces. He probably went off food due to temps dropping off (am I reading it right that this behavior started when you removed the UTH?). Bump his temps back to where they were and see if this changes.
I don't know what caused him not to grow, but it wasn't your conditions. Conditions bad enough to stunt growth like that would almost certainly kill a frog before he got this old, and your guy seems to be pretty healthy. I saw something almost exactly like this in a snake once; it was a European garter breeder working with a subspecies that has a VERY limited captive gene pool and is extremely inbred.
When the snake died around five years old it still looked like a six month old juvenile. It had been healthy and had no deformities; just never seemed to grow at all.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
1. Size of enclosure. 10 gal tank. see op picture
2. # of inhabitants - just Tucker
3. Humidity. between 60-80%, and I try to keep it around 80%
4. Temperature70-80
5. Water - type Distilled, but I still treat it for dechlorination. just in case.
6. Materials used for substrate: Currently, "Plantation soil" shredded coco husk, which is pretty much the same as eco earth.
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. Just one fake plant
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source. 60% crickets, 40% live mealworms
9. Vitamins and calcium? i dust crickets and mealworms about twice a week.
10. Lighting. next to a window, which I keep closed when it gets chilly. there is a 40watt lamp ona timer which keeps it warm. I also have an OTH for a while
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure. see amove
12. When is the last time he/she ate. maybe a few days ago, he eats infrequently
13. Have you found poop lately. no, but i've found it occasionally
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog. about a year
16. How long have you owned him/her. about a year.
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred. captive bred, but he was a gift, so i dont have specifics on where exactly he came from.
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats. Just crickets and mealworms.
19. How often the frog is handled. rarely, but i've had to dig him out from underneath the soil a few times recently. I put him in the water when i do that.
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area. low
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc). change the water whenever It has been used, or every other day.
No, he actually may have started doing it after I put the UTH in. Since i've turned it off, his behavior hasn't changed though.Originally Posted by DVirginiana
I've at least tried to keep him well maintained, and follow what one should do for pac-mans. If he is going to be a small frog, that's alright with me because I think I'd like him smaller rather than monstrous. I just wanna make sure I'm keeping him healthy.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
distilled water is a huge no-no. That must change emmediately. Distilled water contains zero minerals which are vital to a frogs health and growth, and since frogs skin is highly permeable, the water is sucking it right out of him. Switch to tap water (treated) or spring water right away.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Using distilled water can leach vitamins and minerals from your frog, use spring water or dechlorinated tap water
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Lack of a diverse diet and not getting proper supplementation can be detrimental to their health and stunt their growth. He should be eating 6 to 7 small crickets everyday. Babies and juveniles nees as much nutrition as possible becauwe these are crucial growth satges
Distilled water can only be used fro misting a d humidifiers. As was stated above it leaches vitamins, salts, and nutrients out of the frog.
His growth is most likely stunted due to these errors.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
In theory distilled water is bad for frogs, but once the water comes in contact with the air, a cup, a container, it immediately becomes contaminated, and thus is not distilled. I have talked to Josh from Josh's Frogs on this issue and he uses exclusively distilled and RO water for all his frogs, and has NEVER had a problem. Distilled water is not certain death for your frog.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Distilled water does not become replenished with air contact. Maybe bacteria, but a TDS meter will still show 0ppm total dissolved solids. Contact with air will not replenish vitamins, salts and minerals. I have no idea why josh would be doing this. More expensive and not worth the risk.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Have you ever lost a frog from distilled water? Obviously there is not an issue since Josh literally breeds and raises thousands of frogs from tadpoles every year, including horned frogs. Again, it sounds bad in theory, but since I bet nobody has actually lost a frog to distilled water, it's just heresay.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Who says nobody has lost a frog to distilled water? This is likely a case right here in this thread of distilled water harming a frog. And theories have weight because they are based on logic. Distilled water has zero benefits, likely harmful and is more expensive. The fact that Josh is using it makes no sense unless hes secretly peddling the distilled water industry and getting paid to do it. Or hes making enough money that hes gone eccentric and thought he would start using a more expensive, inferior way of hydrating his frogs.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Okay, whatever you say... I guess somebody who breeds thousands of frogs every year doesn't know what he's talking about. You say it's "likely" harmful, but do not know that for a fact. Theories can only be proved by testing, and in this case, the theory has been proven false.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Lol now there is some sound logic for you. I can only imagine the thought process.
"hmmm. You know id like to abandon this inexpensive, proven safe way of hydrating my frogs in order to test a theory. Apparently, and logic dictates that distilled water can harm my frogs, Its more expensive and may kill my frogs but lets give it a shot. Derp derp. Now its safe for everyone!"
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Now, now, children.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Fundamentally I do appreciate what herpguy is saying. Its good to find out answers for yourself. My biggest pet peeve is when people hear something on the internet and repeat it verbatim like its cold hard fact. But distilled water just isnt the one to test for reasons ive stated above. No advantages, and only possible disadvantages.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
I do not believe things I read on the internet, that's why after a lot of research I decided to contact somebody who has physical experience in the matter. I trust that his experiences prove this is a safe method.There are plenty if advantages, including RO and distilled water to be free of, in addition to minerals, any possible toxins or viruses that may lurk in water. Bottled water is far from completely safe by human standards. Dechlorination and purification tablets do not take care of everything. Distillation covers all that, but the only downside is the rumored leeching effect on amphibians. Since this, in practice, is not the case, this is the safest method.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
you guys are having fun here, aren't you? as much as I would appreciate good discussion, Tucker here needs help and advice.
how big is the frog exactly? on a pic he looks like froglet, not like 1y old should.
Locomike, there are a few things i see here that you need to address asap
1. temps - 70 - too low, try to keep night at 76-78 and day 80-82
2. water - ( I'm not going into discussion here :lolchange to treated tap water.
3. food - crickets and mealworms are the worst food out there, the least nutritional. Mealworms are a big no-no for pacman, it is a very high risk of impaction. does Tucker eat from tongs? if so I would feed him pacman food, it is very nutritional and will help you a lot, if he doesn't tong trained, they i would suggest to try convince him to eat from them, it would really help you feed what needed. if he is not signing up for not moving food, then switch to nightcrawlers and forget about mealworms completely. remember to dust food with multivitamins and Ca.
at this point I would also do UNFLAVOURED pedyalite soaks for a few days.
try to do all that and keep us posted.
Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
I'm pretty sure there has been a few reports of frogs being hindered by distilled water on these forums, I remember one being an american bullfrog. Now.. I know Josh frogs does use distilled/RO water but I've only heard them suggest using it for misting/fogging purposes. I've never talked to Josh, I'm just going by what I've read on his website. If you say he does use it for all other purposes, then I have no reason not to believe HerpGuy. I personally wouldn't risk using distilled water and wouldn't suggest it, just because it's practically suggested by everyone on these forums not too.
As for the subject at hand, I wish I could be more help. Maybe you just have a frog that has some kind of growth disorder, it's possible. Especially in Hybrids.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Theres always good fun in a debate. Nothing personal. I respect people who stand for their opinions. And yes, as Pluke said some people have experienced issues with using distilled water. And this can very well be one of them. A frog who has clearly had stunted growth and been given nothing but distilled water. I doubt its a coincidence.
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
That's enough the both of you. YES!! Distilled water is detrimental to the frog's overall health if the frog is only given distilled as a water source. It does not gain any mineral content by coming into contact with air or a clean water dish. They must have a water source that contains minerals and salt in order to properly hydrate themselves. The use of distilled water will eventually kill the frog.
Just because you dont believe everything you read on the net or its not in writing in front of you does not make it any less fact believe me. They become very lethargic and body functions begin to shut down. Frogs do not seek out pure water and are not exposed to it in the wild. R/O water as well as Distilled must have an additive used with them that adds minerals and salts before it can be used for the frogs. Also any water that is to be used for breeding such as the water for the eggs and tadpoles must also have mineral content although low as rogs usually seek out soft water rather than hard nontheless it must be present or the frog's health will begin to deteriorate and it will waste away. Eggs will die and so will tadpols.
You guys are better than this and this site is for information sharing and i would assume that most people seek the site because they seek information. If everytime info that you don't know is presented and you either refuse to believe it or dny its truth then how do you ever expand your knowledge at all.
Now this arguement needs to stop NOW! It is off topic and in no way is it assisting the OP nor does it have any informative benefits
Last edited by GrifTheGreat; November 13th, 2012 at 03:40 PM. Reason: j
Re: He's a year old, but barely grown at all
Well, your basically saying what I said. Im not arguing, but presenting truth. Just as you are.
Distilled water bad. No. Dont do it.
Over
Edit: And I am helping the OP. If someone makes a false claim that op believes in, it could cause the death of a frog. My "arguing" is correcting false potentially hazardous informatiom.
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