Brand New In Wall 75 gallon paludarium - first time with frogs

[flynmnky]

Hello All!
First post in frog forum, have been reading a lot. Have decided I'd like to create a paludarium/vivarium in my vacant reef tank. I have a 75 gallon ex-reef tank with a 55 gallon sump in my wall, and after a large temperature spike causing cosmic meltdown, and two children, I'd like to move to something a little more forgiving.

I realize that these are not the simplest animals to keep, but affter a saltwater reef tank the parameters don't seem too bad to me. I'm prepared for the costs of outfitting this tank. I'm prepared for the time commitments. I'm lacking some practical advice.

I'd like to create an environment primarily to: add a focal piece to my home in my empty reef tank; keep an entertaining species to both myself and my children, provide a new challenge in between your typical hamster/goldfish and a highly technical reef tank. Quite frankly, I don't have the time to deal with the tight perameters of salt water aquaria...

I would like to keep diurnal frogs, and would like to have more than one or two frogs in a 75 g. I'm leaning toward a fire bellied toad species specific tank, becuase of entertainment value. Would certainly consider others. although it would be nice to have community tanks, I understand that really isn't the best plan for my new inhabitants.

My kids are 4 and 5 years old. What would be the most interesting to them in the daylight hours? I will be building a waterfall most certainly, and will have water 5-6 inches deep. Will most likely be building a false floor with egg crate. Definitely will be a live planted tank and have always loved tillandsia & orchids, even before this, have kept both of these plants extensively. (although that does not exclude other plants)

I am not afraid of technical tanks. But I also don't want to get in over my head.

Are FBT's my best option? Are there other species I should really consider? Most important in species consideration is entertainment value during the daylight hours....

No, my kids will not hold them. No, I am not going to compromise health for my own whims. I sincerely understand limiting your choices in sacrifice of your pets.

Real questions boil down to: am I choosing the right species? what is the best substrate for live plants over an egg crate? I want to provide very aggressive filtration, what is the best method?

Lets just talk as if money was no object, (which of course it is), but I'd like to work down from a best case scenario.
Will be happy to provide pictures as needed of current tank set up.

Thanks so much in advance. I learned everything I know about reef aquaria from a forum like this. Looking forward to becoming a part of your community~!!
~Elizabeth

[Heatheranne]

Hi Elizabeth. This sounds like a great project . How exciting!

Firebellies are a great first frog/toad. They are quite entertaining with their silly antics and are nice and bright.

Another great option if you can keep up the humidity to 80-90% in that location of the tank would be cobalt dart frogs. They are very pretty, love to hop around and explore and are pretty hardy.

It would depend on what most interests you. Firebellies love to swim in shallow water of about 2" +/-. Cobalts would love a very shallow trickling type waterfall or gentle stream.

Here is a good article to explore frog/toad options you might like.

Choosing the right frog ...
http://www.frogforum.net/content/choosing-frog-147/

The care articles section at the top of the home page here has some great information on some species commonly kept.

You can scroll through the vivarium section too to see some great ideas.

Welcome and I hope you'll keep keep a thread of how you build your new enclosure. We'd love to see and share as you go .

[flynmnky]

Hey Heather! I have been talking with some friends over the last few days, who have kept both darts and FBTs, and I am thining darts might be more fun for me. I have actually read that article, and I hesitated to work with dart frogs as a first frog because they have a reputation to be tricky. HOWEVER, reef tanks are super tricky so I think I might be up to it. I am now trying to narrow down my dart frog species.

Would really like to end up with a group of maybe 4 frogs in the 75g. I LOVE the D. tinctorius but are they too territorial to house up to four in a heavily planted 75g?
Also have been researching D. Leucomelas, or D. Auratus, and Epipedobates anthonyi - I really like the red frogs as well...

All in all, I'd pick the cobalts though if I thought there wouldn't be territorial problems...

Trying to get a handle on their personalities, and trying to choose bold frogs that are fun to watch!
Will post a picture of the enclosure once I get it cleaned up and do a new build thread there - always fun to do and soo much to learn!
Thanks so much for your reply! :-)

[Heatheranne]

I only have 2, but they are always together. At night they cuddle up in the corner together. 4 might be tricky depending on their genders. Though 75 gallon is really big so you may be fine, though I'm not positive. I am new to darts, but I love them . Never boring. The cobalts seem to love to climb all over everything. So cute.

John, Donlisk and a few others have had darts for quite some time. Micheal Novy from Rainforest Junky's and Zach from joshsfrogs too. Great people to ask.

[deranged chipmunk]

For a 75 i would go with leucs. They are active and live well in groups. And they aren't tiny like some darts.

[flybyferns]

For a 75 i would go with leucs. They are active and live well in groups. And they aren't tiny like some darts.

I agree.......... they are a blast !
It's like a 24/7 frog movie.
Get some popcorn and pull up a comfy chair.
Lynn

[flynmnky]

Have pretty much made my mind up on Leucs, mostly because people seem to say they are pretty bold, large, hardy and do well in groups :-) frog movie sounds perfect! I am thinking about five of them in the 75. Does that seem like too many? Would consider dropping back to three, have a thing for odd numbers.

[flynmnky]

I'm also rethinking water depth. Still want the waterfall but am thinking of a series of shallow pools spilling into one another. How deep do these guys like their water??

[deranged chipmunk]

aha!! my most favorite, yet controversial subject!!LOL 99% of people will tell you the water in their tank should of a depth that would allow their head to be above water because they are not strong swimmers and can easily drown. and that is, i must say, logical advice. and is probably advice you should follow, since it comes from people who have bred darts for decades.

i, on the other hand think that is poppycock. i firmly believe that that is something that started on the internet years ago, and grew a life of it's own. when i was building my 125, i did a ridiculous amount of research because it was originally going to be for Leucs. not only did i do a lot of reading, but i talked to a lot of people who have owned darts for a long time. i spoke with people who have the recommended water level and those who have a great deal more. i also did not center my research on just leucs, but all darts. and i came to one conclusion. nobody truly knows, because most people who have darts, follow the recommendation, and those who don't, well, they are just shunned. however, those people i spoke to that have a lot of water in their tanks, have never had a problem with them. none have drowned. in fact, one guy i spoke with, sent me pics of his D. Azureus swimming under water, from one side of the tank to the other, and then back again.....LOL so, i came to the conclusion that if you have very little water in the system, how would you know they aren't strong swimmers? and furthermore, i could not find one single documented case of a dart actually drowning in a water feature. i did read about a guy who said one of his females held another female under the water and drowned her in a territorial dispute. but, he never actually saw it happen. just found the frog dead in the pool of water the next morning. now, did it happen, no way of knowing.

so, i think the question that begs here is, can a frog drown? absolutely, heck, even dolphins and whales drown. but, it's not easy for any of those animals to drown. if you have easy access for them to retreat from the water, and the current doesn't prevent them from getting out, then they should be fine. i am no expert on darts, mind you. i am just relaying my personal opinion after doing my research and the fact that i trust millions of years of evolution. LOL

my recommendation is to do your own research, and go with whatever level of water you are comfortable with. if you choose that it's just not worth the risk, then stay shallow. i would never recommend anyone do something that would put their animals at risk, even if i do not believe there is one. shallow is 100% safe, and you should never have a frog drown on you.

btw....a water feature with several shallow pools sounds really cool

[flynmnky]

Well, to be honest I'm contemplating both. The waterfall would be shallow pools with pebbles. The reservoir in the bottom I'm still playing with, but km thinking deeper. My gut feeling from everything I've read is that if there are enough climbing out places it shouldn't be a problem...

But for "soaking" we're talking under an inch or so....so they can stand on the floor an keep head above the water. Splash pools!! :-)

[deranged chipmunk]

should be an interesting design and for the record, i just want to remind everyone that i did recommend you follow the sage advice of the people who raised darts for years and to do your own research. before the flaming begins....LOL