Ill White's

[Lixra]

The weekend of the 23rd, I went to the Doncaster Reptile Expo and purchased a trio of White's from a well respected breeder. Within 24 hours noticed one of them not moving much, had constricted pupils, and was refusing food. After some time would just go limp and not move at all. Within 48 hours of getting him home, he passed away.

The other two frogs seemed fine, lively and active, both eating. One of them has not been eating for the past few days, and today noticed the same behavior the other frog had before passing away.

I've spoken to a friend of mine who has kept White's for years, and she suggested posting something here for any other advice. I had spoken to the breeder when the first one went ill, and he was unsure of what it could be.

Temperatures are 28 C (82.4 F) heated with a heat pad controlled by a stat
Misting with bottled water (never tap water)
Eco Earth Substrate

These are some pics I took of him this morning.





The other frog has been moved into a viv by himself, which is what I did with the other two when I noticed the first one go ill. I housed them together originally, as they were all kept together at the breeder's.

Any advice is appreciated.

[Bolisnide]

I'm sorry to hear of your frog's passing
For the remainder frogs:
Get some unflavored pedialyte and make a bath for your little babe. 1 part pedialyte to 10 parts treated tap water or 100% spring water.
Be sure water is luke warm, not too cold nor too hot. bathe him for about 10-15 mins and then bathe him in a plain water bath to rinse him. I have found a small tupper ware like container with a lid works great for baths. drill holes into the lid, then file down any rough and sharp points. this will keep him in the bath.
This should help get some nutrients and electrolytes into him and enough energy to start hunting and eating again. If this doesn't work, I would say a vet is in order.
A fecal test should probably be done also to check for parasites.
Good luck

Edit: be sure water is chin high, no higher, to prevent drowning

[Lixra]

Thanks I'll try the pedialyte bath, we don't have that over here in the UK, but I've used a similar product in a gecko slurry.

I've posted this on a reptile forum in the UK I'm a member on and have found out I'm not the only one that's having this issue. Another member there who also purchased a trio from the same breeder has two ill frogs with the exact same symptoms

When I emailed the breeder about the first one passing after 48 hours the response I got was pretty much "oh well". So not too happy at the moment

[HerpDerp]

I surprised the breeder doesn't guarantee the frogs for a set amount of time. I hope you can figure out what's going on :/

[Lixra]

Make that three people now including me... sad thing is, this breeder is a moderator on the Amphibian section of this forum and hasn't posted on any of our threads. I've sent another email and PM on the site.

And little Kryten passed away during the night

Only got Rimmer left now, who seems to be fine. Hopefully, whatever affected the others he didn't get.

[Rae]

I'm so sorry for your loss :/

[Lixra]

well, now I'm White's Tree Frog less

Rimmer stopped eating a few days ago and passed away during the night. I've called my vet about doing a necropsy to find out what the issue was, but they said they'd have to send it out as it's specialist in nature and would cost me about £200 (which is about $320 USD), which I sadly don't have kicking around. I've contacted a specialist vet, and after telling him the symptoms and letting him know at least 2 other people have had the exact same issue, he thought it sounded like an Aeromonas or Psuedomonas bacterial infection. When I looked that up last night, I found this information:

"Red leg" (Aeromonas hydrophilla)

Aeromonas can devastate captive collections as it has both contact and airbourne transmission, but it does occasionally cause outbreaks in the wild, as it did in the UK after they already had an outbreak of ranavirus. The common name of "Red leg" is given because the disease will cause a pinky-red flush on the underside of the thighs which can also spread to the belly area above the vent. Any bacterial problem in amphibians can cause a pinky flush in this area so this symptom alone is not enough to indicate Aeromonas. There are other symptoms as well which demonstrate the pathogen's attack on the skin such as a slimy pasting occuring all over the body or mostly underneath (the ventral surface) and ulcers in the skin which will be concentrated on the feet, legs and sides of the body. The frog may lose weight quickly, become lethargic, and it might also become paler than usual. You will need the antibiotic Baytril (enrofloxacin) from a vet

Pseudomonas

This disease is unfortunately a treatment resistant problem. It is an aggressive tissue-eater and extremely painful. It is fast and can kill a frog in only a couple days once clinical signs appear. The frog will become very bloated, become lethargic, change to a dark body colouration and for the Common Green (White's) tree frog (Litoria caerulea), pale mint green spots might appear. Very few antibiotics will work against Pseudomonas - Gentamycin is one and ciprofloxacin is another. There is no time to waste if Pseudomonas should appear so we would suggest that if you keep frogs - especially the Common Green/White's - that you have gentamycin on hand in your refridgerator at all times. Both gentamycin and 'cipro' are nasty antibiotics so extended use of these is not recommended. With painful conditions such as this, painkillers can be used on amphibians to relieve suffering and reduce stress so that the antibiotic MIGHT have a chance to succeed.

I've contacted the seller again, this time by phone, and relayed the information I was given and he says this is something that naturally occurs in water. However, I only use bottled water for all my animals (or dechlorinated for the water monitors). So if that's something that naturally occurs, then dang... I've got this as well.

Does anybody have any experience with either of these bacteria in their collection? Without actually getting a post mortem done, I know it's going to be hard to pinpoint what exactly went wrong, but if anybody can give me some information it'll be helpful.

The breeder has offered me a replacement or a refund by the way. I think I'll take the refund.

[HerpDerp]

I don't know anything about these infections but I do hope that the seller takes you seriously. He really be having his frogs looked at by a vet and treated so whatever it is doesn't spread. Definitely take the refund. Get some frogs that actually healthy from somewhere else. And if you do make sure you clean the tank thoroughly so the disease doesn't spread to any new frogs.

[Lixra]

Unfortunately, I don't think he is taking this seriously, he said out of all he produced only at a max nine had an issue. Which were bought by myself and two other people, we've spoken up as we're members on that reptile forum, but there may be others that haven't said anything.

I do know of some other breeders who are producing White's, who may be going to the next Doncaster show so I'll have to see what's available (this is next month on the 18th). This other breeder was sure to mention to me on the phone that he has a new batch of White's ready to go, but yeah... think I'll pass on that gem of an opportunity.

As they were housed in a small plastic terrarium to start (and then separate ones as the illness took it's course) as they were very small, I've binned it and bought others. Not risking anything at this point.