Uh oh...

[Silverspring47]

Hey guys!
ok...I'm BRAND NEW at having a reptile of any kind... I got my pacman frog, Prince Eric, a few weeks ago. When I bought him, I asked the seller at the Reptile Store how to take care of him. I have a feeling.....he had absolutely NO idea what he was talking about!!!!!!
my bf got one too at the same time. He feeds his daily, and says he eats 5 a day. Mine would only eat every few days. He found his on his back, the reptile store said it could be stress, or unhappy in his enclosure for different reasons, etc. mine has been fine, but recently stopped eating. I figured he wasn't hungry, or maybe about to hibernate....SO....
first ill explain his enclosure (which after further research, think they screwed me on!) ... He's about an inch. Bright green! And beautiful. He didn't eat at first, so I'd bring crickets to his nose and get him to eat, but then he started catching em. His enclosure is the small plastic box they had him in at the store... Literally, 6x6x6.... I have no idea what kind of substrate he has, bc the package is clear with no labeling...it's what they gave me. It's light brown and....kinda looks like furry worms. He buries himself in it just fine.
i was told not to bother dusting the crickets, but after I bought a chameleon, I got calcium stuff for him, and read tht it can be good for frogs, so I used it a bit.
The reptile guy said to mist him once a week...but that didn't sound right. My chameleon gets misted at least 3 times a day...so, I misted my frog more often than recommended. When I did this, he moved around more.
until today!
I got home from work, and he's limp! I can't see him breathing at all! I read online that it could be bc he is breathing thru his skin, going into hibernation, and if you warm him up he'll "wake up"....well since he wasn't eating, this made sense. He wasn't buried tho...
well I took him out, to see if I could see him breathe, and he looked...dirty. He had a film on him, so I cleaned him up, before realizing it may have been for hibernating! ****! It was filmy...so I dunno! Anyway, I googled everything, and saw a YouTube frog shedding his skin, and it looked similar....my froggy's was just thinner. SO, as I said, I read that maybe he was cold...after all, I wasn't told to give him heat! The ppl at the damn store said he would be fine in that home!! I left the little fluorescent light on....*gulp* all the time. They didn't tell me not to! I was told not to touch him, not to move him, and not to change n e thing if I could help it....so ya, now I read that is wrong, and that he needs heat. Sooooo...I put the chameleon light on, and left him under it for a while. (Not RIGHT under it)...I checked on him, and the guy was brown! All except his head!!! He's skin was harder....I'd given it only 20 mins or so, but now I'm terrified that I cooked him!!! I just feel horrible! I have no idea what I'm doing! I NOW feel that his home was too small, he had no water dish, just what I misted him with (which I was told to do once a week), and crickets (that he didn't eat much of) so I misted him, and he softened up again......

i really can't tell if he is hibernating or ...cooked. I REALLY wish the guys at the reptile store had SOME idea of what they were talking about!!! (I realized they were full of **** when I got my chameleon off kijiji, and researched a new cage for him, and discovered he MUST live in an open cage, NOT glass....the reptile store had recommended a really nice $300 glass terrarium......)

So ya, I'm getting the idea that they have NO CLUE what they r talking about! If Prince Eric has passed, I'll be heartbroken! I would want another one, and would get him a better terrarium etc, if he's not dead, I'll buy him a new one also! (We were told n e thing bigger than what he has will make it difficult if not impossible to hunt. But everyone online has one bigger than mine!) I also wanna know for my bfs frog!

I know it sounds so horrible...and I feel absolutely TERRIBLE so please don't tell me I am...I already feel it. Just tell me what I can do, and help me in understanding what he is doing! Limp, darkened hardened skin (softens with water), not moving AT ALL...no breathing, no eye movement, no nothing!!!! I also found a book I'm gonna buy about pacman's...so I don't have to listen to stupid reptile store guys n e more! (They also told me buying a chameleon would be $3-400 total....chameleon was $150 and tank he showed me was $300....it didn't include 2 lights, or anything for the chameleon to climb on...just an empty tank....and as I said, the WRONG tank!! FFS) anyway...

....is my prince Eric dead???? How long should I wait, or what do I look for to be SURE he's not hibernating??? Pease help!! This princess is sad, mad, n confused!!!

[Heatheranne]

Okay, Silverspring....take a big deep breath.

The first thing you need to do is to see if he is breathing. He needs hydration. Fill a small water bowl with dechlorinated water to about 1/3" deep and let him sit in it. The water needs to be luke warm. Not cold and not hot. 80 degrees is perfect if you can test it with a thermometer.

He needs calcium. If he will eat, sprinkle 2 or 3 crickets lightly with amphibian or reptile calcium with vitamin D 3 powder. If he is too weak to eat, then get some Repta-aid/Reptaboost. Put a half scoop,using the scoop provided in the kit, into the water you soak him in. Let him soak for 30 minutes. Normally a 15 minute soak is good, but your frog is severely dehydrated. The layer on him is his she'd. He is not shedding it off because the skin is too dry and he is weak.

He should have a thermometer gauge and a hygrometer (humidity gauge). These are a must. His home should be misted with dechlorinated tap water or spring water. Not bottled drinking water. This is usually done 2 times per day. The goal is to keep his home at 80% humidity.

His home should be warmed to 80 degrees F. If his home is plastic, you'll have to heat from above. I would actually recommend getting a 10 gallon fish tank with a metal screen lid. I would purchase a dome lamp with a dimmer and a 40 or 50 watt heat bulb, no higher. Get the lamp with the dimmer so you can adjust the heat as needed. If you have extra money, I would also purchase a UTH (Under The Tank) heater. It looks like a heat pad. Only use it on a side of the tank, never the bottom. Pacman frogs live to bury in their substrate and will burn themselves. Putting it on one end is best, preferably towards the back. If you can afford any tank you want, I have found the exo terra and Zilla tanks with the front doors to work best for keeping moisture in, but, of course, a cheaper 10 gallon aquarium works just fine.

Adding more in just a few minutes. Getting my daughter ready for school.

[Heatheranne]

This is a common problem encountered by lack of proper husbandry education. The best you can do now is correct the situation and hope he pulls through. It is good to read up on pets before you purchase them. Since we are already here with a dilemma, let's correct the problems and move forward. Learn from your mistakes. And know that most pet stores do not give you proper care advice when it comes to amphibians. You are lucky to have found this forum. Read a bunch of articles in the pacman section here. Here is a link to the Pacman care guide here. It is accurate.

http://www.frogforum.net/content/pac...-breeding-170/

[Heatheranne]

The safest substrate is Eco earth coco fiber (not the husk). Expand and moisten it in dechlorinated water or spring water. Change his substrate ever 4 to 6 weeks. Remove any feces as soon as you see it. Also, change his water bowl water daily.

They stress easily. To help reduce stress, get him something to hide under. A plant or log hollow works well. They have them at the pet store. Another thing to do is to cover the back and 2 sides of his tank with a medium or dark background. Outdoor colors work best. You can do this in several ways.

Lighting...they need a 12 hour day light cycle. This means 12 hours of night, 12 hours of day. They do not like bright light. They are nocturnal, so they must have 12 hours of dark. Very important. A simple low watt bulb can be used. You do not need anything fancy.

Oh, I forgot to tell you, you'll need an amphibian multivitamin powder. Lightly dust his food one day a week with the vitamin. When your frog is healthy again, lightly dust his food every other day with the calcium with vitamin D powder. Do not feed him mealworms, they cause constipation. The best staple foods are cut up earth worms or night crawlers, crickets, and roaches. Their food should be no larger than the width between his eyes. Feed him as much as he wants in 15 minutes daily. Be sure the worms have no dyes or scents added to them.

[Namio]

I hope the frog is still alive.
But, the first step is to determine if it's still alive. This can be trickier than you would think.

Because when stressed by consistent low temperature and desiccation, they can make layers of cocoon around them to cope with harsh conditions and prevent waterloss by nearly 100%, and hence the "film" that you had found. Cocoon forming does not happen overnight, it may take several weeks because they build it layer by layer. When sealed in cocoon, these frogs won't be able to move and looks mummified and "dead."

This pic is a cocoon formed by an unrelated frog. So it may not look like this in pacman frogs.


From your description that the frog skin is hard (can be soften by water) may potentially that it's in the process of cocoon forming, so do exactly what Heather said to soak the frog in shallow (chin-high), lukewarm, and dechlorinated water. If it's in cocoon-building phase the moisture will signal the frog to act and look normal again.

If it's not making cocoon and the skin look somewhat normal, then you can simply flip the frog on its back to see if it would struggle to re-orient itself.

By the way, the "brown furry worm" you got from the pet store is probably a type of common terrarium moss called sphagnum moss.

Keep us posted.

[Silverspring47]

He looks dead as a door nail! He is ...well, he looks like plastic. Very dark. I didn't see him breathing last night ....
im gonna go to the reptile store and ***** hard core!! I'm also going to advise all of this to my bf so he can have better luck with his I'm so pissed!!! They didn't tell me ANY of that stuff!!!! ��

[Namio]

He looks dead as a door nail! He is ...well, he looks like plastic. Very dark. I didn't see him breathing last night ....
im gonna go to the reptile store and ***** hard core!! I'm also going to advise all of this to my bf so he can have better luck with his I'm so pissed!!! They didn't tell me ANY of that stuff!!!! ��

Did you have a chance to soak it in water?

[Silverspring47]

no.... he hasn't moved since last night. he is all flat. and dark. and ...ya... not looking good. I'll post a pic.

[Heatheranne]

Oh gosh! That just breaks my heart . Try soaking him and see if he moves at all. It appears as though he is dead, but you should see if he moves at all. His limbs are all dehydrated and atrophied .

[Silverspring47]

I know! I'm furious!!!! I was SO excited to get him, as I've never had a frog before...When I went with my bf to buy him, we asked how to care for him. He said he can stay in his little plastic cube for "a few years", and I only had to mist him once a week, and give him 3 crickets every 2-3 days... Now I find out that none of this is right and they have no idea what they are talking about! Shouldn't be allowed to sell reptiles! Gonna soak him now, tho I really don't think it'll help. When I took him out last night he didn't move, even when I flipped him onto his back...

[Silverspring47]

He just floats

[Ra]

no.... he hasn't moved since last night. he is all flat. and dark. and ...ya... not looking good. I'll post a pic.

Yeah I'd say that frog is dead, and judging by how dry that moss is, I'd say he was dessicated. Looks like the dry moss sucked moisture right out of it.

[Ra]

How many watt bulb was the chameleon light?

[Silverspring47]

i changed the moss last night, when I believed he was already dead... I was told to keep it about that moist. EVERYTHING they told us has been wrong!!! You'd think you could trust the Reptile Store to give you proper advice on how to take care of your pet! They told us anything bigger, tank wise, would cause him to starve bc he wouldn't be able to get his food b/c he'll just sit n wait for it to come to him. No water dish needed, just mist him once a week... BS!! Luckily I can help save my BF's frog... Should see the money we spend at that place too!!! He spent about $1500 in a matter of days just buying stuff... I was lucky I didn't decide to purchase my Chameleon from them, or else he too would be in the wrong tank, getting a bacterial infection, and dying!!! FFS! I've never been so furious in my life!!! Poor little guy! I woulda bought him all the right stuff and done everything he needed to live as a happy pacman! I loved having him and couldn't wait for him to get big n strong! I resisted picking him up, as much as I wanted to, b/c I know you shouldn't handle them.... I really did try

[Ra]

The moss should have been kept moist. If you changed it last night and it was that dry all night, the moss could have sucked the moisture right out of your frog.
A smaller enclosure is usually better when they are young, and six inches by six inches is adequate for that size frog. If you keep the substrate moist enough, you can sometimes not use a water dish, but it is better for an inexperienced keeper to do so. I dont use a water dish, but my frogs get weekly soaks and I keep moisture and humidity adequate.
The frequency with which you mist will depend on how well the container traps moisture. If they are in a plastic container with holes for ventilation, which is how I keep mine, you may need to mist far less. In an open screen top aquarium or kritter keeper which high ventilation, you will need to mist far more frequently.
You should take a pic of the enclosure, and tell us what kind of "chameleon lamp" you put over the frog, and tell us how close and how long it was there.

ITs really up to you to do your own research (get a book about them, dont rely on a care sheet online, especially dont rely on a pet store employee who may be less knowledgeable about frogs than they are about lizards and snakes), and the time to do that research is before you buy the animal. You should buy everything you need for the animal and set it up before you bring the animal home.

[Silverspring47]

I did keep the moss moist...I misted more often than I was told to. Always made sure it was damp enough for his skin...so I thought...I dunno...he stopped eating over the weekend...had crickets in his cube, but didn't eat them.

Sadly...I think any other info is useless at this point...he's gone the other hibernating / cocooned frogs aren't flat...mine is.

thank guys!! I'll be buying a book on pacman frogs, and when I'm ready, I'll get a new one... I also want a red eyed tree frog...again, I'm doing my own research before any new purchase!! Not relying on "the experts" ...(FYI, these guys have a huge biography on their website about how long each guy has been involved with reptiles, what kinds they've had, etc etc...so I trusted em)

[Ra]

Im still curious to know about the lamp you put on the enclosure. Depending on how you did things, we could determine what killed your frog and it will help you make sure you dont do it again.

[GrifTheGreat]

I'm sorry for your loss. I will start by saying that reptiles and amphibians are NOT the same. Especially care wise. Frogs need lots of moisture and especially need it more as tropical species in which these frogs are. Heather has covered everything and Ra is right about the dried moss causing the frog to dehydrate to the point of dessication. These frogs require very high humidity levels and moist substrate. They need high temps in the low to mid 80s during the day and mid to high 70s at night.

As was already stated NEVER trust a pet store when needing to know how to care for your frog and before you even get the frog make sure you have everything you need to care for it. That means research and lots of it. If you do not have simple amphibian knowledge then you are not ready to care for a frog. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. You must never purchase any pet if you yourself are not aware of its basic necessities and housing. I know you're angry and I know that you want someone to blame in which case even the people at that store could have been misinformed on proper care so its not entirely their fault no matter how wrong they were.

You're here now so it is my advice to you to look through the forum, ask questions, and take the information you've already received and build on it before you try again. I wish you're coming here would have been under better circumstances, but a lot of members here came to this site looking for help and insight into the care of their frog. Do provide the necessary knowledge on the frog's care to your BF before he loses his too.

Once again I am sorry.

[Lija]

I won't be saying all I think about that store, cos I will be banned right away..... so so mad... poor little guy, so sorry for your loss.
yes you should always do your own research, but usually you are getting this after years of having reptile/frog, usually first time owners just go to the store and listen what "knowledgeable" associates tell them to do, they know how to talk and pretend they know what they're talking about, so you trust them unless you know otherwise.
Silverspring you did great by joining forum, you'll find tons of advice on everything. it is way better then just to buy a book! in fact you won't even need it if you spend enougth time on there and always ask if you have any questions. welcome!

I really hope your BF won't lose his too.

[Namio]

I'm sorry for the loss of Prince(ss) Eric(a). At the very least this can be a learning experience for you and people around you, although unfortunately at the expense of the life of a frog.
Grif pretty much stated what needs to be planned out before impulsive purchase of exotic pets. Don't forget that you and your bf still has another frog so make sure to keep it healthy and happy, and to not repeat the same mistake again. Read the caresheet carefully and purchase the necessary equipment such as under tank heater.
Good luck!