Substrate questions

[NoviceFrogger]

Hello,

I have an Exo-Terra 12"x12"x18" tall enclosure with a 1" base layer of Zoo-Med hydroballs and 1" of Zoo-Med coconut fiber on top of that for my green tree frog. In order to maintain 65-75% humidity with my Exo-Terra Monsoon the coconut fiber is saturated within a few days. I have seen in a few posts that the coconut fiber may not be the best for the green tree frog.
Can you please let me know what the best approach would be to avoid saturation, promote proper drainage and create a more self sustaining environment that does not require weekly substrate exchange?

[ToadPaparazzi]

I would recommend having a 3 inch deep false bottom with at least 1 inch of water in it. I'd also recommend using ABG as substrate instead of coco fiber. I assume you could too the ABG with a few inches of large leaves (leaf litter). If humidity is too low, cover a portion of your lid to retain humidity.

-Christian

[NoviceFrogger]

What do you use to create the false bottom? Also, how do you keep the water in the bottom from going stagnant?

[ToadPaparazzi]

What do you use to create the false bottom? Also, how do you keep the water in the bottom from going stagnant?

I use plastic egg crate from home depot or lowes. I make a box out of it and cover it with fiberglass window screen.

You can drain the false bottom when it starts getting full. I haven't had a problem with stagnant water yet.

[NoviceFrogger]

I have been researching this topic all day and it appeas my setup (1" of hydroballs, substrate barrier and then 1" of coconut fiber) is rather high mantenance. On Josh's Frogs their tree frog care kit contains only coconut fiber in expandable brick form. Their reccomendations for dart frogs is much more comprehensive and consists of the following: 2" of hydro balls, substrate barrier, 2" AGB mix, long fiber spagnum and then leaf litter. Based on my reading it seems the the later method does not require regular changes, plastic egg crate or draining. Can anyone tell me why they would make 2 drastically different care kits with the only real difference being the frog that will inhabit the viv? I do not have live pllants at the moment, I am sure they are part of the equation.

[Heatheranne]

I did the same as toad paparazzi, PVC pipe elbows, eggcrate, fiberglass mesh/screen, substrate. If you want step by step pics, just mention it and I'll link them up .

I do have a tank with hydroballs in a mesh bag I sewed. It works ok, but the water does get stinky sometimes and I have to do a total flush through when siphoning. I also still have to change the substrate a bit often, unlike the false eggcrate bottom, which I only change the top layer of about every 6 months.

I only have to siphon the eggcrate about every 2 to 4 months depending on how much I spray. I created a trap door for this. It's easy.

The hydroballs are a quick set-up, but if you're going to have live plants, I would recommend the false bottom. I'd also recommend some nice springtails and wood lice to help clean your tank and minimize mold growth. They do a great job.

[NoviceFrogger]

Thanks for the info, pictures would be great, especially of the areas related to siphoning.

[ToadPaparazzi]

Hydro balls are heavy! Also, with less area or volume consumed by the hydro balls, an egg crate false bottom holds a much larger amount of water, decreasing the chance of water stagnating.

[bobrez]

I have both type tanks eggcrates and hydroballs, I prefer the eggcrate but hydroballs work too.
The joshfrog info was all correct
For siphoning you need some flexible tubing and a place to get it to the bottom of your tank and
siphon. They sell manual pump type siphons for gas at autoparts store for cheep that work good

[NoviceFrogger]

Do you know why the susbstrate reccommendations differ so much between dart and tree frogs?

[ToadPaparazzi]

I'm not sure at all... I like how well ABG drains... Probably has to do with cost effectiveness... Tree frogs don't require the amount of constant misting (at least I don't think they do) that darts do... Probably a good vendor trying to save customers money.

[Heatheranne]

Here is my hygroton clay ball mesh bag...


Here is my false bottom...


I learned how to do a false bottom by Donlisk. He is great at making vivariums.

[Heatheranne]

The water in the bottom of an eggcrate flooring is filtered as it passes through the layers. If you don't allow the water to get deep enough to come up through the substrate then any stagnant water is not really in contact with your flooring, and then you can just siphon it out. I use a large fish tank siphon with a hand bulb suctioner. It works well.

I don't have any pics of me siphoning out the tank, but you can see the two trap door I created in the back and the two eggcrate and mesh hole covers. I only put plants in a pot in the corner so I can easily slide them forward to put the siphon down in the hole.

[NoviceFrogger]

So you make and install the egg crate, then the clay balls and then spagnum moss? That is what i gather from the pictures. The egg crate box is a very good idea, thanks.

[ToadPaparazzi]

For mine, I make an egg-crate box covered in fiberglass window screen. I put 1/2 - 1 inch of damp sphagnum over the box, 2-3 inches of ABG and as much leaf litter as I can on top of that.

[UncleChester]

I use hydroton as a false bottom, but I leave a corner of the tank bare bare so a little pool of the drained water is available to the frogs. A little river rock wall works as a barrier for this:



This way the water is easily accessible for draining. The water in the pool will evaporate (adding humidity back to the tank), so siphoning it out isn't often necessary. It also makes a very large water source possible (when filled up to just below the substrate) should I have to leave for a couple of days. The downsides to this approach are mainly cosmetic- the water can turn a little brown from running through the substrate and the constant evaporation will add some hard water stains.

The construction is straightforward, build a 'porous dam' out of the river rocks to make a pool area, holding them together with a little dab of silicone where the rocks contact one another to help hold them in place. Make sure there are no holes large enough for the hydroton to slip through one way, or your frog to slip through the other. Add an inch or more of hydroton. Lay down landscaping fabric (or screen mesh, but I prefer the fabric), then put the substrate on top. Live plants are encouraged to help maintain humidity, plus they look nice imo.

To increase the drainage of your substrate, you can mix in sharp sand, or add in some orchid bark, or use the full on ABG mix mentioned above. Whatever additives you use for the substrate, if the frog can get to it make sure the pieces are either too large to be swallowed or too small to cause a problem if they are swallowed by mistake.

[Heatheranne]

The pictures in mine are actually from two different tanks...one with hydroballs, the other eggcrate false bottom.