F2 Cornuta Breeding

[Namio]

Hey guys, I just came across a very interesting question which I didn't know the answer to:

Are there any theories behind why captive-bred Cornuta are unable to breed in captivities?

I know a few large-scale breeders have successfully generated F2s from CB Cornuta, but almost all other breeders have failed to make F2 babies.
I'm guessing big breeders may have employed the use of hormone to catalyze breeding in CB Cornuta?

[mikesfrogs]

No one as far as I know in the usa has produced babies from f1s. I have talked with philippe about this a bit and its come down to the amount of dry season they go through and a few other variables.

[Namio]

No one as far as I know in the usa has produced babies from f1s. I have talked with philippe about this a bit and its come down to the amount of dry season they go through and a few other variables.

Hey Mike, this does not really explain the fact that WC Cornuta are able to produce in captivities. WC frogs may have experienced their native conditions but once they're shipped to the State (or Japan, etc.) we aren't able to replicate the breeding conditions and yet WC Cornuta are consistently breeding in captivity.
So this gets me real curious about what's the determining factor(s) when neither WC or CB Cornuta experience native breeding condition in captivities and yet WC can produce while CB cannot.

[mikesfrogs]

I think the wc are easily triggered to breed because of the small window of time in the wild they have for a rainy season. As far as the cb F1 babies not breeding I don't know why they don't. I am goint to try with solid green "F2" japanese stock in a year or two. They say that they produce cb from cb stock. We will see.

[IvoryReptiles]

We will also be attempting to breed the cornuta here. It is an exciting project and hopefully we can get it to work.

[Namio]

I think the wc are easily triggered to breed because of the small window of time in the wild they have for a rainy season. As far as the cb F1 babies not breeding I don't know why they don't. I am goint to try with solid green "F2" japanese stock in a year or two. They say that they produce cb from cb stock. We will see.

Mike, or anyone else in that regard, do you know if F1 CB Cornuta do "breed" (as in amplexus and egg-laying) in captivities but the eggs are just sterile? Or they just refuse to even initiate the act of breeding (amplexus) altogether in captivities?

[mikesfrogs]

How are those little guys doing? I kept back 40 caatinga babies. They breed within 9 months. I've heard cornuta taking as long as 3 years.

We will also be attempting to breed the cornuta here. It is an exciting project and hopefully we can get it to work.

[IvoryReptiles]

How are those little guys doing? I kept back 40 caatinga babies. They breed within 9 months. I've heard cornuta taking as long as 3 years.

They are doing well, we change which are our favorites on a daily basis. Yes, 3 years is probably going to be the soonest we can expect to breed, but it will be well worth it. In the meantime, we have a few other projects in mind that are also very exciting!!

[mikesfrogs]

That's good!

[mikesfrogs]

The females refuse to lay the eggs.

Mike, or anyone else in that regard, do you know if F1 CB Cornuta do "breed" (as in amplexus and egg-laying) in captivities but the eggs are just sterile? Or they just refuse to even initiate the act of breeding (amplexus) altogether in captivities?

[lumpbump]

Perhaps they need a couple seasonal changes to get their hormones to kick in? If I were interested in creating a breeding program/trial that definately would be one of my variables.

[GrifTheGreat]

Just a theory of mine, but perhaps they only gather to breed in the wild every 2 to 3 years and that's why they refuse to lay the eggs. Also it could be that they travel to the same exact spot where they were born like a lot of other animals do and this task cannot be performed in captivity so the female refuses to lay.

Just a theory with no scientific proof to back it. So little is known about this species in the wild so it would be hard to say exactly why the females refuse. It is a possibility. Bullfrogs return to the same pond where they were born most of the time so its not a far stretch to assume this possibility as well.

[Namio]

Just a theory of mine, but perhaps they only gather to breed in the wild every 2 to 3 years and that's why they refuse to lay the eggs. Also it could be that they travel to the same exact spot where they were born like a lot of other animals do and this task cannot be performed in captivity so the female refuses to lay.

Just a theory with no scientific proof to back it. So little is known about this species in the wild so it would be hard to say exactly why the females refuse. It is a possibility. Bullfrogs return to the same pond where they were born most of the time so its not a far stretch to assume this possibility as well.

If WC Cornuta refuse to breed in captivities, then that could very well be the case. Although Cornuta may be philopatric, that still does not explain WC frogs are able to breed in captivities. That's an interesting thought nonetheless. Actually combining what Mike & lumpbump said the answer may lie in the native seasonality of these frogs do make sense, which is the only major difference between a WC and a CB Cornuta.

Perhaps they need a couple seasonal changes to get their hormones to kick in? If I were interested in creating a breeding program/trial that definately would be one of my variables.

I agree and it's totally possible that the seasonal changes in extended period of dryness, humidity, and temperature may alter the hormonal level in these frogs, and hence the desire for breeding. So without this "conditioning," female Cornuta would not even want to breed, although completely capable of breeding.

The females refuse to lay the eggs.

After Mike had said this, it confirmed another idea I had before, but it's nothing more than a hypothesis---Maybe that Cornuta's egg production in females needs to be triggered by the seasonal changes. Furthermore, those specific native dryness, humidity, and temperature may start the biochemical pathway in egg production. In other words, CB female Cornuta are not unwilling to initiate the act of breeding, it's rather that they are incapable of breeding (they have no eggs in them).

Ah this is fascinating I wish I can get a job in a lab working with Cornuta, lol Wouldn't that be perfect?

[mikesfrogs]

WC cornutas will lay eggs in captivity. I got both of my old females to lay this year. The issue is the cb F1 refuse to lay eggs.

[mikesfrogs]

I know those that get the frogs to live usually are able to get them to breed the following year.

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[Namio]

I know those that get the frogs to live usually are able to get them to breed the following year.

Nice, so that pretty much eliminated my previous hypothesis:

Maybe that Cornuta's egg production in females needs to be triggered by the seasonal changes. Furthermore, those specific native dryness, humidity, and temperature may start the biochemical pathway in egg production. In other words, CB female Cornuta are not unwilling to initiate the act of breeding, it's rather that they are incapable of breeding (they have no eggs in them).

Because if my hypothesis were true then seasonal 'conditioning' is required to trigger female Cornuta's egg production, then it inevitably implies that WC female Cornuta can only breed ONCE in captivities because it's removed from the necessary egg-producing environment.

This also suggests that the seasonal changes play a role in changing the hormonal level, or sex-drive, in these frogs... just like what lumpbump had suggested previously. The below quote is from me but I simply elaborated what lumpbump had said.

it's totally possible that the seasonal changes in extended period of dryness, humidity, and temperature may alter the hormonal level in these frogs, and hence the desire for breeding. So without this "conditioning," female Cornuta would not even want to breed, although completely capable of breeding.

Interesting. This makes me highly suspect that the Japanese breeders used hormone treatment to get the F1 Cornuta to spawn babies in captivities.

[mikesfrogs]

They use the hormones when they won't breed naturally. I will try breeding cornutas in a year or two. I have to import a group of 50 or so. I figure to bring in all greens. Mine as well breed a color that's not around and will retain a high value.

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[Namio]

They use the hormones when they won't breed naturally. I will try breeding cornutas in a year or two. I have to import a group of 50 or so. I figure to bring in all greens. Mine as well breed a color that's not around and will retain a high value.

you should most definitely import full green Cornuta as they are highly sought after and therefore more expensive. You should generate a lot of interest as I don't recall seeing anyone bred a batch of full green cb Cornuta this year.

[mikesfrogs]

Last greens I saw were $175.00 and they weren't full greens. I will bring some in but not sure how many will be for resell. I want to keep most of them.lol

[Namio]

Last greens I saw were $175.00 and they weren't full greens. I will bring some in but not sure how many will be for resell. I want to keep most of them.lol

Yeah Mike if I were you I'll definitely keep most of the full green ones, because you just don't know when they'll be around again soon. You would probably rather hold them up and breed them so you'll have guaranteed supply of full green Cornuta.