Sleeping in the Water Dish?

[HerpDerp]

A couple days ago a ended up getting a white's tree frog. I didn't expect to actually get one that soon but when I went to the pet store they told me the other one they had died a couple weeks before and they didn't know why (sounded like impaction). And this poor guy was dark gray and just didn't look good. The temps where too low and it just looked sad. So I took him home. He's about 2 inches long (bigger than I had anticipated starting with) and most definitely a male. I got him to croak the first night.

So here's the weird thing. He was in his water dish this morning when I turned the light on and he never got out of it. He just hunkered down and fell asleep. Is this something I should be concerned about? He looks fine and is sleeping just the same as if he was sleeping on the side of the glass or on his vine. He's just sleeping... in his water. Oh and on another note, he shed his skin last night too and actually looks green (he's a darker green, but looks healthier).

[flybyferns]

Hi ,
I keep the information below in a word.doc so it is available quickly; so you may have read this before.
FF member that are experienced enough to help will need additional information. Please cut, paste and answer the following questions.

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...enclosure.html

If you end-up needing a vet but do not have a herp vet nearby (able to care for frogs ) here is D Frye’s contact information. And a list of common “medicine cabinet” supplies that should always be kept on-hand when keeping frogs.

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

If you ever have to email him, he will need photos and detailed information regarding eating, pooping, housing. He will get back to you promptly.

Additional first-aid information
Frog Forum - Basic Frog First Aid

Hope this helps your frog and gets things rolling along for you.
This could mean more than one thing. Maybe he is constipated? What substrate is in his enclosure? Have you seen any poop?

Lynn

[HerpDerp]

Thanks for the reply. I've only had him a couple days so I'm not entirely sure on some stuff but I can fill out the trouble in the enclosure. It should also be noted that he has a 15 day guarantee and the place I bought him will pay if he needs to be taken to their vet.


1-size of enclosure: 10 gallon tank (the plan is to get an exo terra 18x18x24 in a couple months)
2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?): Just him!
3-humidity: 30-50 during the day 80 at night
4-temp: 78 ish at night and 85 during the day
5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish: de-chlorinated tap water for both.
6-materials used for substrate: Just coco fiber
7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv: I have a pothos that's been sanitized prior to being put in (soil changed allowed to grow out chemicals etc.). There are also some artificial plastic plants that were rinsed in hot water and a climbing vine bought specifically for reptiles and amphibians.
8-main food source: As of right now, crickets but I also plan on feeding night crawlers and dubia roaches.
9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ): None yet since he hasn't really eaten since I got him (adjusting) but I have a vitamin/calcium combo supplement that I plan on using. I'm thinking 2-3 times a week?
10-lighting: a fluorescent bulb and an incandescent for "basking" (both low wattages)
11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure: UTH and the bulb.
12-when is the last time he ate: I put three crickets in when I got him three days ago. I only have seen one scurrying around so I assume he's had a couple. I plan on being more aggressive with feeding tonight or tomorrow once I feel he's adjusted.
13-have you found poop lately: He pooped in the bag when I brought him home.
14-a pic would be great ( including the frog ) any little cell phone pic is fine: I have included a pretty crappy cell phone pic. Don't mind the country crock pot used for the pothos LOL
15- how old is the frog: I'm not entirely sure. He's about 2 inches long if that helps?
16-how long have you owned him: Three days
17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred: Well the sign said captive bred. I'll assume it's accurate.
18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats: I pretty much already covered that.
19- about how often the frog is handled: Minimally. When I put him in the tank and I took him out of the water dish because I was worried about him getting too cold.
20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area: Pretty low traffic. It's in the bedroom so really the only time there's anyone in there is briefly during the day and then when I'm getting ready for bed there's some "traffic".

[HerpDerp]

So he ate three crickets last night that I know of for sure. I left a couple in the tank for him to hunt through the night. They're only pin head crickets so that's why I fed him so many. Sometimes the pet stores "small" crickets are actually medium and sometimes they're pin heads lol. He doesn't seem all that active. He moves around a bit at night but not a ton. And he seems to be completely avoiding the warm side of the tank. It's about 85 degrees in the basking area. Is that too warm? And at 2 inches how much and how often should he be fed??

[Sasha]

How's your frog? I think a temperature of 85 is a little high, should be around 80 and around 75 at night. Bring the humidity up too, should be between 60-80% during the day. My frog is about 2 inches long too and I just asked the vet how many crickets to feed him because I can feed him 6 a night and he gobbles them up and stares at the bowl for more. He told me that 4 is good and that 6 is okay but not all the time. Mine are still pretty young so I feed them every night dusted with Calcium. Once a week I will throw in a multi vitamin.

It worries me that your frogs previous tank mate died and that they told you that and now your frog is acting funny. White's aren't water frogs so they don't really sit too long in their water. So it's possible your frog has an impaction or something else. Is it sleeping even at night when it's supposed to be active?

One of my first frogs was really active for the first week and then all the sudden stopped eating and got very lethargic. I had one of those "windows" with the pet store and even though I felt bad and worried about what would happen to the frog, I did take it back and got a new one.

[HerpDerp]

He does seem a bit lethargic at night too. His belly looks a little bloated so maybe he's impacted. I can put him in some warm water tonight and see if that helps. I'll bring the temp down a bit too. That could be why he's favoring the cooler side of the terrarium. And fortunately if there is a problem with my frog they will pay for vet care rather than just replace him right off. It's the only one they had and I just decided I didn't want to leave him in that situation. Is there anything else I can do to help impaction (if that's even the problem). He pooped on the way home and I haven't seen any since so that might be the issue.

[Sasha]

Warm water with a few drops of honey is supposed to work.

[HerpDerp]

I don't have any honey so I just did warm water for tonight. I didn't make him stay in it or anything but it did seem to do wonders for his color. He got much brighter after that. If I don't see a poop in a couple days I'm going to see if the pet store will pay for a vet visit. How long would it take for him to process food and poop?

[Bolisnide]

Thanks for the reply. I've only had him a couple days so I'm not entirely sure on some stuff but I can fill out the trouble in the enclosure. It should also be noted that he has a 15 day guarantee and the place I bought him will pay if he needs to be taken to their vet.


1-size of enclosure: 10 gallon tank (the plan is to get an exo terra 18x18x24 in a couple months)
2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?): Just him!
3-humidity: 30-50 during the day 80 at night
4-temp: 78 ish at night and 85 during the day
5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish: de-chlorinated tap water for both.
6-materials used for substrate: Just coco fiber
7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv: I have a pothos that's been sanitized prior to being put in (soil changed allowed to grow out chemicals etc.). There are also some artificial plastic plants that were rinsed in hot water and a climbing vine bought specifically for reptiles and amphibians.
8-main food source: As of right now, crickets but I also plan on feeding night crawlers and dubia roaches.
9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ): None yet since he hasn't really eaten since I got him (adjusting) but I have a vitamin/calcium combo supplement that I plan on using. I'm thinking 2-3 times a week?
10-lighting: a fluorescent bulb and an incandescent for "basking" (both low wattages)
11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure: UTH and the bulb.
12-when is the last time he ate: I put three crickets in when I got him three days ago. I only have seen one scurrying around so I assume he's had a couple. I plan on being more aggressive with feeding tonight or tomorrow once I feel he's adjusted.
13-have you found poop lately: He pooped in the bag when I brought him home.
14-a pic would be great ( including the frog ) any little cell phone pic is fine: I have included a pretty crappy cell phone pic. Don't mind the country crock pot used for the pothos LOL
15- how old is the frog: I'm not entirely sure. He's about 2 inches long if that helps?
16-how long have you owned him: Three days
17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred: Well the sign said captive bred. I'll assume it's accurate.
18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats: I pretty much already covered that.
19- about how often the frog is handled: Minimally. When I put him in the tank and I took him out of the water dish because I was worried about him getting too cold.
20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area: Pretty low traffic. It's in the bedroom so really the only time there's anyone in there is briefly during the day and then when I'm getting ready for bed there's some "traffic".

My guess would be the temp is a bit too high, as previously stated...causing the enclosure to dry out.
Be careful with the incandescent heat lamps (even low wattage) on a 10 gallon long. They can pose a big problem with drying out the enclosure.
Can you put it on a dimmer? This way you can dim the light keeping the daytime temp about 80. Turn it off at night and only use your UTH (on the side of the tank). Keep night temp no higher than 75, about 70 is preferable.
My guess is he is/was thirsty and soaking up the water...
A vet is a good idea, without doubt.
Goodluck

My white's didn't poop nor did he eat for an entire week after I brought him home.
I think, the best thing you can do right now is keep his enclosure temps and humidity right on, cover 3 or all sides of his enclosure (not the top) to help him feel more secure, and relax, give him time to settle in. He is probably quite stressed out. I would also recommend you not handle him, unless it seems quite obvious he needs a soak. But if it were me, and my new frog, I would just let him settle in while providing the best environment control.

[Sasha]

I'm not sure either about what a regular poop cycle is. Shrek, pooped on Thursday after a very traumatic visit to the vet and I haven't seen anything since.

[HerpDerp]

Well it definitely makes me feel better knowing that it can take a while for them to poop. And I can monitor temps and might not have to use the incandescent light at all. I have a florescent bulb so I could just use that. I did find that covering half the top in plastic wrap helped the humidity quite a bit. I didn't know the temps could drop so low at night. Should I just put the lighting and heater all on a timer so it all turns off at night? I have a bird too so I never let my apartment drop below 70 degrees so room temp stays pretty high all year round for me.

He's actually eating just fine. I put a deep tupperware container in the tank and fed him in that and he ate three in the blink of an eye. It all seems that he ate the three that were in the tank too so his appetite is great. I don't have the sides covered yet but that should be happening soon. None of the pet stores around here had what I was looking for so I went online and ordered a bunch of those plants that suction to the back of the tank so I can create a natural looking background. I also ordered a digital thermometer/hydrometer so I can get some more accurate readings. I should have that by the end of the week.

[Sasha]

Glad to hear he's doing better! Sounds like he just needed some time to adjust.

[KingCam]

It sounds like you got it all figured out, but I wanted to bring up a point for anyone else reading this post in hopes of helping their frog. Frogs will retreat to water bowls also if their tank is infested with mites. Getting in the water will get the annoying, and possibly dangerous mites off. If your frog is sitting in the water bowl all the time look closely. Are there little colored dots moving around all over your frog? All over the substrate? They are probably mites if they are round! (if they are longer in shape they may be springtails. Springtails will go shooting away from you when you get your finger close to them. Mites do not jump)

[HerpDerp]

Well I've always seemed to have a problem with little fly looking things in the substrate. I use eco earth and I always thought it was just fungus gnats that sometimes get on plants. Is there a link or something that shows what these mites look like? It's entirely possible that the pothos that I put in the tank has mites since it was in with my pacman before he died. Although it's important to note that I've never actually seen them on the frog. These flies are TINY though like smaller than a fruit fly so I don't know if I would see them on him. He got in the water again this morning after his light was already on (he was awake this time) so I'm a bit concerned about the mite thing. But another weird thing is that the only time he ever stays in his water dish for any amount of time is in the morning. He doesn't really hang out there at night. I just want to make sure everything is perfect for him after what happened to my pacman frog . That was so difficult and sad.

[KingCam]

Well I've always seemed to have a problem with little fly looking things in the substrate. I use eco earth and I always thought it was just fungus gnats that sometimes get on plants. Is there a link or something that shows what these mites look like? It's entirely possible that the pothos that I put in the tank has mites since it was in with my pacman before he died. Although it's important to note that I've never actually seen them on the frog. These flies are TINY though like smaller than a fruit fly so I don't know if I would see them on him. He got in the water again this morning after his light was already on (he was awake this time) so I'm a bit concerned about the mite thing. But another weird thing is that the only time he ever stays in his water dish for any amount of time is in the morning. He doesn't really hang out there at night. I just want to make sure everything is perfect for him after what happened to my pacman frog . That was so difficult and sad.

Mites do not turn into flies, so no worries there. I am sure you're dealing with fungus gnats, and they just kinda come with the territory. Hard to get rid of and keep gone.

If you have a mite infestation you will see them crawling around all over the substrate and probably all over your frog. Run your finger through the substrate and then watch closely with a magnifying glass. If there are mites you will see them. They look like minature spiders with big round butts.

[HerpDerp]

I've definitely never seen anything that looks like that. Are fungus gnats really a problem for frogs? I've had them on my plants for months and I refuse to spray for them. They don't really seem to bother anything or bite. They just like to hang out in the plants so why put harmful chemicals in my home? As I said, I have a bird so I have to be careful about that stuff. I'll only try to get rid of them if they're a problem. Otherwise, I'll consider them part of an ecosystem!

[KingCam]

Are fungus gnats really a problem for frogs? I've had them on my plants for months and I refuse to spray for them. They don't really seem to bother anything or bite.

No. I never said they were?

They just like to hang out in the plants so why put harmful chemicals in my home? As I said, I have a bird so I have to be careful about that stuff. I'll only try to get rid of them if they're a problem. Otherwise, I'll consider them part of an ecosystem!

I never suggested using harmful chemicals. They would kill your frog. Your frog is more sensitive to chemicals than your bird, I can guarantee you that.

[HerpDerp]

Oh no no... I was legit asking if they were a problem because I didn't know. And I meant IF they were a problem I would have to spray all of my house plants... and there are a TON lol. I'm glad to hear they aren't a problem because I know how hard they are to get rid of.

But this morning he was sleeping in his water dish AGAIN! I had to move him out because I was worried about him getting too cold. I stopped using the incandescent bulb so the temp is between 75 and 80 now. But I still haven't seen poop. I fed him again last night and he seemed to have no problems with appetite. I just don't know if I should be worried about this behavior or not? Or am I just being paranoid?

[Bolisnide]

But this morning he was sleeping in his water dish AGAIN! I had to move him out because I was worried about him getting too cold. I stopped using the incandescent bulb so the temp is between 75 and 80 now. But I still haven't seen poop. I fed him again last night and he seemed to have no problems with appetite. I just don't know if I should be worried about this behavior or not? Or am I just being paranoid?

Well, that is strange for sure.... frogs typically soak a lot when they're impacted. Because his appetite is good, I would think that he is probably OK...
Personally, I would recommend you find a herp vet that can test his fecal (when you find one). Find a vet now, so that when your frog does poo, you're ready to go. If you don't have a vet in your area, you can send a sample to Dr. Frye (email and contact info above in Lynn's post). The vet can tell you how to collect the sample, and preserve it until it can be tested.
In the mean time, if you're worried about impaction, you can give him a honey bath. A couple drops of raw honey in some luke warm treated water. If you don't have honey on hand, you can use a little sugar. Soak him for about 15-20 mins. I've found that a small plastic container with a lid (punch holes in the lid and file down any sharp points) works quite well for soaking. He won't be able to jump out.... Just be sure the water is no deeper than his chin.
This will help move things along.

I know my whites eats quite a bit every other day (he's full grown), about 4-7 med to lg crickets. I find poop only about once, sometimes twice per week (a big one).

Another thing to consider, as you're already are aware of, the 10 gal enclosure is way too small. You really need to upgrade as soon as you;re able to. Preferably to something that is about 18 inches tall. He will be much more comfortable.

BTW, what is your humidity at now? He could just be really thirsty.

[HerpDerp]

The humidity is at 60 if I don't mist for a while but after I mist it will jump to 80 and it stays around 70 or 80% at night. He really does look a bit bloated but then again he may just be a little over weight. I'm not sure how the pet store was feeding him. I can try to get a decent picture tonight to post. Last night when I was feeding him a tiny little ball of what I assume was poop but it wasn't much. So maybe he is trying to poop. How much sugar should I put in the water for him to soak in?

And yes, I know I need a new enclosure. I want to get a 18x18x24 exo-terra. I had originally assumed I was getting a little baby so the 10 gallon would have worked for a little longer, but I get the feeling I'm going to have to upgrade much sooner than anticipated.