URGENT! Sick Whites Tree Frog (Pictures included)

[GrifTheGreat]

The two frogs were fine together. I found out today after taking him to the vet that he had swallowed some of the coconut fiber in the tank. I have now taken out the substrate and am looking for something else to put on the bottom of the tank so the same thing doesn't happen to Trevor.

Any suggestions?

It wasn't the coconut fiber. Coco fiber is safe for them to ingest because if doesn't cause blockages and is easily passed if some is ingested. Each frog and toad species secrete their own toxins that can make other species sick or be fatal. He would have had to ingest quite a large amount of coco fiber to cause an impaction. Most impaction last for quite a while and can be treated long before it becomes an issue to the point of death.

Now their are sometimes rocks, pieces of plastic, sticks, seeds, and other objects that sometimes can be found within the coco fiber that can and will cause an impaction if eaten. When was the last time he had pooped prior to him becoming ill?

[KingCam]

I'd like to second Grif in his/her opinion that the coco fiber is not the culprit. Constipation/impaction would not result in such a quick and dramatic death. It would happen very slowly over the course of two or more weeks in most cases.

It sounds to me, based on the photos and description, like your frog died from exposure to some kind of toxin.

[frolicthefaun]

Well, then maybe you guys would like to tell my vet that she was wrong?

Sorry to say, but I trust my vet a bit more then some people on a forum.

[Rae]

Well, then maybe you guys would like to tell my vet that she was wrong?

Sorry to say, but I trust my vet a bit more then some people on a forum.

Then why bother coming here for advice if you aren't going to believe it... also having 2 frogs in a 10 gallon is too small. Rule of thumb 1 frog per 10 gallons. But since you don't trust any of us keep doing what you are and you can start a lil frog graveyard in your backyard.

and yes most of us wouldn't have issues telling people when they are wrong... if it means saving another frog ...HINT HINT!

[John]

No need to get heated now. Let's be calm and polite, Rae. It is Frolic's right to take or leave the advice received here.

I've read through the whole thread and I too doubt that the coconut fiber was the cause of death - it's common for frogs to have some of their substrate in their gut at any given time because they often get some in their mouths when feeding.

It is a huge no-no to put 2 different species of frog together, especially when they come from opposite sides of the world. Both of the frogs you had produce their own nasty skin secretions, which at best can irritate other species, at worst they could stress them into becoming ill and dying.

Then there is the possibility of parasites being passed from one to the other (remember that since these frogs are from opposite sides of the world, you're talking about giving parasites to a frog that never had to deal with that type of parasite before).

The same goes for diseases like Ranavirus and Chytrid fungus. Healthy frogs can carry diseases and never suffer from the disease, but they can pass it on to frogs that have never encountered that disease or strain of disease before.

I know it's difficult to accept that a decision we made has led to the death of our pet, but take heart from the fact that you won't make that same mistake in the future.

[frolicthefaun]

I feel the substrate was the issue, even if Kevin didn't swallow it, I feel like it had been harboring some sort of bacteria. while I was removing the substrate from the tank, it had an odd smell to it, somewhere around rotten eggs and mold. I removed it all completely, washed down the tank and everything in it. I also removed a wooden hut that was in the tank which had started decomposing on the side I couldn't see.

I feel that Kevin would have died within the first week or two within having the two together in the tank or at least shown signs of illness if he had gotten something from Trevor. I had him for about a month and a week and then it happened when I noticed the smell in the substrate. So I think that he swallowed the substrate and the substrate had something in it.

Which leads me to a new subject... what is a easier substrate to maintain then coconut fiber? I found it hard to clean and messy. Maybe just simple leaf litter on the bottom? Rocks? Suggestions for a substrate are welcomed. :] Rude comments are not.

Thanks. <3

[GrifTheGreat]

I feel the substrate was the issue, even if Kevin didn't swallow it, I feel like it had been harboring some sort of bacteria. while I was removing the substrate from the tank, it had an odd smell to it, somewhere around rotten eggs and mold. I removed it all completely, washed down the tank and everything in it. I also removed a wooden hut that was in the tank which had started decomposing on the side I couldn't see.

I feel that Kevin would have died within the first week or two within having the two together in the tank or at least shown signs of illness if he had gotten something from Trevor. I had him for about a month and a week and then it happened when I noticed the spell in the substrate. So I think that he swallowed the substrate and the substrate had something in it.

Which leads me to a new subject... what is a easier substrate to maintain then coconut fiber? I found it hard to clean and messy. Maybe just simple leaf litter on the bottom? Rocks? Suggestions for a substrate are welcomed. :] Rude comments are not.

Thanks. <3

Just use moist paper towels as substrate, but replace them everyday so no fungal growth occurs. This will also help you keep track of bowel movement and is very easily cleaned. A word of advice though. Keep different species separate. You don't know what caused his death for sure and it is better to be safe than sorry. This issue has come up quite a few time here on this forum and most ended like this one. They don't live together or coexist in the wild so don't assume they will be ok in captivity.

I believe that this thread has gotten out of hand and so I'm not going to dwell on that subject any longer. Use paper towels as substrate. You'll find that it is much easier to maintain and clean.

[Rae]

I apologize I wasn't exactly meaning to be rude but more frustrated that people come here for advice then outright post they don't trust us. So why bother coming here? Taking our advice MAY help save her next frog from dieing in a similar way and not even considering we are right and that maybe the vet missed something and risking it is very upsetting.

I put sheet moss over my subtrate now but my frogs are tong fed so im not worried about impaction. I have also looked into leaf litter as well.

What I just read about the smelly subtrate does prove it wasn't impaction...

[CamilleElise]

I will repeat what so many others have said: It is always a bad idea to mix species. They just have so many different requirements, and have different toxins that can be deadly to each other. It's tempting because It's fun to have different species, but it's not healthy for them.

Also, the coconut fiber shouldn't have caused impact. I use coconut fiber for all 8 of the Whites I have had in the past year, and impaction has not yet occurred. They rarely swallow any, and if they do it's a minute amount and ground fine enough they just process it through their system. Unless your frog was eating mouthfuls and mouthfuls of dirt, I doubt coconut fiber was the culprit.

Question: Is your vet a reptile/amphibian/exotic animal vet? I feel like a lot of vets might try to help out an exotic animal and basic research does show impaction can happen, but I feel like an experienced exotic animal vet should and would know that finely ground coconut substrate shouldn't cause impaction. Yes, we are strangers on the internet, but consider that many of us have years of experience with this species (myself, I have over 20) and while a vet may mean well, they may not have their own direct experience with a species, even if they are an exotic animal vet. Personally, I trust my vet, he's an exotic animal vet, but I also give a lot of weight to those on here who do have a lot of years of experience keeping Whites, the fact is sometimes they know more than my vet because of their direct experience, and because so little is known about these guys and their illnesses. Just a thought. Through vet visits and online research and forums I have been fortunate to save several little guys from some pretty dire health situations to have them go on to lead long and happy and healthy lives. Out of all 13 Whites I have ever owned, only 2 have ever died from illness, all the rest have gone on to live long lives and appear to have died from old age.

Also, mixing species won't cause instantaneous death, but the toxins can slowly accumulate in the frogs' system and cause death that way, just FYI.