Considering Getting A FBT...

[paris]

After finding a teeny frog on the side of my house (some of you may have noticed my other post) I have been doing a lot of research about amphibians and... well... I'm kind of hooked. I'm used to keeping tropical fish but have recently come across a site that introduced me to the art of paludariums.

I have been doing A LOT of research in the last 24 hours and have come up with a few questions about Fire Belly Toads.

Feeding live foods seems to be the only way to feed the FBTs. Most websites are saying to feed young crickets every 2-3 days. Seems simple; however, I was wondering if in a 76 gallon setup, with a mister and strict humidity control, if it was possible to release crickets into the paludarium to start a breeding colony and after that was established, add FBTs. Would they be able to keep up a breeding colony to supply the FBTs with enough food? Would 76 gallons allow ample hiding room for the young crickets to escape the cannibalistic adults and become food for the FBTs? The only reason I ask is because this setup will be in my apartment that I use while in university and over Christmas break and summer vacation I may only be able to return once every week or even every other week, depending on my schedule. If this won't work I understand and I'll just have to wait until I am in a permanent home where I wont be driving back and forth. I would never jeopardize the health of my pets.

Also relating to food sources, I would consider including guppies in the setup who regularly breed. Would the FBTs use the guppies as another source of food or are the too difficult to catch? I would breed out a generation of guppies from store-bought guppies to ensure the guppies used are healthy and disease free. The guppies would be housed in water that could reach depths of 10-12 inches at its deepest but also have shallow areas. Guppies are also mid to top level swimmers making it easier for the FBTs (who I have read do not swim under water) to catch. I would use an automatic feeder to feed the guppies also thought of using a separate one over the land space to feed the crickets as well, since I read that they will happily accept fish flakes.

Will wax worms reproduce in a paludarium setting? They would probably be difficult to feed seeing as they like a diet that includes honey...

What about garden variety snails? could they be added as a food source? Are the shells too hard?

Are FBTs social? Are they happy as a single specimen, or in pairs? Groups? How many is ideal and/or most natural?

What percentage of their time is spent on land?

I've read A LOT of controversy surrounding housing FBTs and Fire Belly Newts. I think it would be very interesting to house both but again I would never risk the health of my pets. I've looked at a lot of the success and failure stories and a few things popped out at me concerning the way the two are housed together. Newts spend majority of their time at the bottom of the tank while the FBTs will go into the water on the surface. This keeps the two somewhat separated. In my setup I wanted to provide three sloping areas to provide access between land and water. Would this provide enough space that the two would not be fighting for these access points? Two FBTs and two Newts in a 76 gallon setup provides plenty of room for the two species to avoid each other. Over filtration with a drip system so as to not disturb the Newts would help with the waste produced but would this also help with the toxins produced? Also, live plants would be used. Where I am hoping to provide a free-range food supply, would this decrease the feeding time frenzy that some people experience? Japanese Fire Belly Newts are more aggressive than the Chinese variety, staying with the Chinese variety may reduce territory issues.

Would the Newts use the guppy fry as a food source? Or even the guppies themselves?

Cory catfish are an absolute no, but how about Apple/Mystery snails as a clean up crew? Although I am hesitant about this because they prefer tropical temperatures.

Can ghost shrimp be used as a food source for either?

In my ideal setup I have designed a way to provide 100% floor space for water while still allowing for 2/3 land space. How? Well, if I figure out what inhabitants to have, I will certainly post pictures. The tank will be 76 gallons. 30-38 gallons will be water. I would like if I could house 2 FBTs, 2 Newts, 7 white cloud mountain minnows, up to 5 adult guppies, ghost shrimp, and possibly but unlikely an apple/mystery snail (would pond snails be too difficult for a Newt to swallow?). Free-range crickets and guppies would be used as food sources.

So? What do you think? Am I missing anything that I need to consider? All temperatures seem to overlap around 18-19 degrees Celsius (sorry, I'm Canadian) for the water and a little warmer/humid on land for FBTs and crickets. Or better yet create a way to have a warmer side and a cooler side on land.

Is this possible? A good idea? ANY comments and opinions are welcome. Keep in mind that I am not set on this, I have based this on the information that I have found under 24 hours and I am open to a variety of changes or suggestions. I'm so sorry that this is a large post but I want the best for my pets so I want to ask the most questions as possible.

[adinco]

ok I don't have time to read the entire thing but...

first of all, you can't leave crickets in the tank with frogs. they have sharp mandibles and will actually attack your frog. you could end up with dead frogs if you breed a bunch of crickets in the same tank that they live.

Second, during winter, you only need to feed adult frogs once a week. they hibernate and are use to not getting a ton of food during winter months. It will be fine to only feed them once a week during those months. during summer break though, you might want to see if you can have someone come and feed them a few times a week.

[FinnyBird]

Seems simple; however, I was wondering if in a 76 gallon setup, with a mister and strict humidity control, if it was possible to release crickets into the paludarium to start a breeding colony and after that was established, add FBTs. Would they be able to keep up a breeding colony to supply the FBTs with enough food? Would 76 gallons allow ample hiding room for the young crickets to escape the cannibalistic adults and become food for the FBTs? The only reason I ask is because this setup will be in my apartment that I use while in university and over Christmas break and summer vacation I may only be able to return once every week or even every other week, depending on my schedule. If this won't work I understand and I'll just have to wait until I am in a permanent home where I wont be driving back and forth. I would never jeopardize the health of my pets.

No, the toads are very hungry little critters. As I like to say, they always know when they're hungry but never know when they are full. But as for leaving for a week or two, as herpentiles, FBTs are ectotherms, and thus the rate of their metabolism relies on temperature; I have never had to do it myself, but I imagine if you had to leave for a week you could turn the temperature down and feed them a little more than usual before you leave and once you get back. I don't imagine it would be a tremendous problem so long as it doesn't become a normal routine.

Also relating to food sources, I would consider including guppies in the setup who regularly breed. Would the FBTs use the guppies as another source of food or are the too difficult to catch? I would breed out a generation of guppies from store-bought guppies to ensure the guppies used are healthy and disease free. The guppies would be housed in water that could reach depths of 10-12 inches at its deepest but also have shallow areas. Guppies are also mid to top level swimmers making it easier for the FBTs (who I have read do not swim under water) to catch. I would use an automatic feeder to feed the guppies also thought of using a separate one over the land space to feed the crickets as well, since I read that they will happily accept fish flakes.

I own seven FBTs in a 50-gallon tank housed with zebra danios. There has never been an issue with them trying to eat the fish. However, you do want to make sure you have a strong filtration system and that you change the water regularly, as the toads excrete a toxin that can harm fish in concentrated amounts.

Will wax worms reproduce in a paludarium setting? They would probably be difficult to feed seeing as they like a diet that includes honey...

I would not know but if they did, I would not suggest it. Waxworms are very fatty and are best kept only as occasional treats or for sick toads.

What about garden variety snails? could they be added as a food source? Are the shells too hard?

I imagine they are too slow to stimulate a toad for feeding. Also, if the shell was small enough to swallow, then it could pose as a serious threat and cause impaction; if it were not too small, the toads would have a hard time eating the snail.

Are FBTs social? Are they happy as a single specimen, or in pairs? Groups? How many is ideal and/or most natural?

They are VERY social. I personally suggest at least three or more. In a 76 gallon tank, I would say you could easily house nine to eleven toads, perhaps more depending on the setup.

What percentage of their time is spent on land?

Mine do kind of half and half. They enjoy their options. I actually have the tank set up so that one end is sloped-upwards land with hides and plants; there are two pieces of wood (one with moss) that stretch from both ends of the tank, and in the other corner is a filter of my own design that holds plants and allows for a nice shallow, slow-running waterfall rest spot. There are lots of fake and real plants that they can grab onto and crawl on top of, as well. I will have to post pictures. The toads enjoy moving around and finding new places to rest.

I've read A LOT of controversy surrounding housing FBTs and Fire Belly Newts. I think it would be very interesting to house both but again I would never risk the health of my pets. I've looked at a lot of the success and failure stories and a few things popped out at me concerning the way the two are housed together. Newts spend majority of their time at the bottom of the tank while the FBTs will go into the water on the surface. This keeps the two somewhat separated. In my setup I wanted to provide three sloping areas to provide access between land and water. Would this provide enough space that the two would not be fighting for these access points? Two FBTs and two Newts in a 76 gallon setup provides plenty of room for the two species to avoid each other. Over filtration with a drip system so as to not disturb the Newts would help with the waste produced but would this also help with the toxins produced? Also, live plants would be used. Where I am hoping to provide a free-range food supply, would this decrease the feeding time frenzy that some people experience? Japanese Fire Belly Newts are more aggressive than the Chinese variety, staying with the Chinese variety may reduce territory issues.

Do not mix them. Just don't. It is not worth the risk. It is a general rule among all reptiles that you should not mix species, and this is especially stressed with amphibians that excrete toxins. Both may have the name "firebelly" but their toxins are not similar enough for them to be compatible. It is not worth it, and no decent herpentile keeper of any sort would respect that. There's actually not much "controversy," just ignorant people liking the novelty. I have heard of housing FBTs with certain types of tree lizards, however, as neither ever comes in contact with another and have two entirely different water systems.

Cory catfish are an absolute no, but how about Apple/Mystery snails as a clean up crew? Although I am hesitant about this because they prefer tropical temperatures.

Snails are notorius for overrunning tanks, clogging up filters, dying and turning the water foggy. They also are known to carry parasites transmittable to amphibians. I would not suggest it. You could get another type of algae eater without spines that has a limited size, or even get ghost/bamboo shrimp.

Can ghost shrimp be used as a food source for either?

Only if they crawl up on land or in a shallow enough area for the toad to decide it is lunch.

In my ideal setup I have designed a way to provide 100% floor space for water while still allowing for 2/3 land space. How? Well, if I figure out what inhabitants to have, I will certainly post pictures. The tank will be 76 gallons. 30-38 gallons will be water. I would like if I could house 2 FBTs, 2 Newts, 7 white cloud mountain minnows, up to 5 adult guppies, ghost shrimp, and possibly but unlikely an apple/mystery snail (would pond snails be too difficult for a Newt to swallow?). Free-range crickets and guppies would be used as food sources.

For someone who has only done aquariums, it is a very challenging and risky set up. I do not suggest you have the newts. That is a completely bad idea. The insects won't breed fast enough to keep up with the toads, and if they do, your toads will be overfed.

So? What do you think? Am I missing anything that I need to consider? All temperatures seem to overlap around 18-19 degrees Celsius (sorry, I'm Canadian) for the water and a little warmer/humid on land for FBTs and crickets. Or better yet create a way to have a warmer side and a cooler side on land.

You definitely need a warmer and cooler side. FBTs, as herpentiles, are cold-blooded and maintain body temperature by moving to warmer or cooler areas. You can maintain cooler areas by placing plants, hide spots, or a lower-power bulb; warmer areas can be maintained with high power bulbs, lots of open space, and having the area closer to the top of the cage (as heat rises).

Is this possible? A good idea? ANY comments and opinions are welcome. Keep in mind that I am not set on this, I have based this on the information that I have found under 24 hours and I am open to a variety of changes or suggestions. I'm so sorry that this is a large post but I want the best for my pets so I want to ask the most questions as possible.

I have shared my opinion, so take it as you please. At the very least, please please do not put the toads and the newts together. One thing you could do is create a waterfall filter. I prefer filters of my own design, as I am not tied to a company's product and can easily replace whatever pieces needed if something breaks. I can post the basic concepts so you can make your own. It is basically a container placed inside the cage with multiple levels of filtration which the water must travel up through, until the top where the water overflows. I fill this area with marsh plants, which hang over and cover the outside of the filter. My frogs love hanging out up there.

Good luck, and if you have more questions, feel free to ask.

[MantisMan]

wow this is interesting
u could fit about 20 firebellies in a 76 gallon tank, i can fit up to 6 in a 10 gallon
snails r very pesky, they caused a lot of problems in my tadpole tank and it took weeks to get rid of all of them
if u wanna breed feeders, do it in another container
i would go for lobster roaches as they r great food for firebellies
here is the care guide i wrote for them:
http://www.frogforum.net/fire-belly-...lly-toads.html

[FinnyBird]

wow this is interesting
u could fit about 20 firebellies in a 76 gallon tank, i can fit up to 6 in a 10 gallon
snails r very pesky, they caused a lot of problems in my tadpole tank and it took weeks to get rid of all of them
if u wanna breed feeders, do it in another container
i would go for lobster roaches as they r great food for firebellies
here is the care guide i wrote for them:
http://www.frogforum.net/fire-belly-...lly-toads.html

Please don't say you're serious. Six FBTs in a ten gallon is way overcrowded, no matter how well arranged things are, and that caresheet says you can house one toad alone (which is should never be suggested, as it will stress the toad).

But for a seventy-six gallon, you could, at minimum, house eleven or twelve toads and at most maybe twenty or so if you have a good setup.