Fact or Fiction: Tree frogs and drowning

[Surrealasm]

I'm trying to do research to get to the bottom of this question. A lot of care sheets say (White's in specific) Tree frogs are not great swimmers. Do not provide a bowl of water that is too deep or the frog will drown. However, when searching various forums, I've come across the fact that hardly anyone has a frog who "drowns"... its usually found in its bowl of water and had died from other causes.

Let's try to shed some light on this myth.

[Rae]

Yes tree frogs can drown! They are not the best swimmers as you may notice they lack the webbed feet like regular frogs. Yes you can still have water dishes for bathing as long as it is shallow or easy to get out of... rocks, sticks, logs, etc to help them climb out.

In my terrarium I keep the dish water at a level where when my smallest is sitting its head is just above the water.

[Surrealasm]

Are you speaking from experience? I'm sorry but like I've said, I'm reading through bunches of these posts right now and there's plenty of people saying "yes they can drown" but no one seems to have a frog that has actually died from that. A few people even say that when you're breeding frogs like Red-Eyed you need to put them over deep water to stimulate their "urges".

[BlueisallIneed]

Are you speaking from experience? I'm sorry but like I've said, I'm reading through bunches of these posts right now and there's plenty of people saying "yes they can drown" but no one seems to have a frog that has actually died from that. A few people even say that when you're breeding frogs like Red-Eyed you need to put them over deep water to stimulate their "urges".

Well it's common sense, tree frogs live in trees not water, if you ever see a tree frog fall into water bowls with out getting there footing right away they flop around and will go under and not to mention arms and legs flying to latch onto something. They need water to keep them hydrated not to swim in.

[ViperJr]

To say "tree frogs can drown and are bad swimmers" is just plain wrong, because it's just to unspecific. First of all, what's the definition of tree frog in this question. All frogs that dwells in trees, or just the fanily Hylidae? Or some other obscure definition?
Second of all, a lot of tree frogs are great swimmers and spend a lot of time in the water (Theloderma corticale and Hyla arborea, for example, where one of them are even a member of Hylidae) and therefor it's no harm at all.

So, the problem here is the termology. "Tree frog" is too unspecific to find any relevant information. It would be much wiser to do the research on a species-to-species basis. I've heard people say that they've had to help a Agalychnis callidryas to actually get out from a slippery water bowl. If it's true or not, I do not know. But it enough to make me a little bit catious, especially since the callidryas don't even need much (or any) water.

Lastly, about their need of water to breed: The case with many tree frogs (especially in the Agalychnis-genus) is that they do indeed need a water source, since the tadpoles needs water. However, many lay their eggs on leaves above the water, and not actually in the water. Some spend some time at the surface (haning from a branch or other vegitetation) to absorb water for the eggs, and some fully enters the water. It all depends on the species.

[flybyferns]

To say "tree frogs can drown and are bad swimmers" is just plain wrong, because it's just to unspecific. First of all, what's the definition of tree frog in this question. All frogs that dwells in trees, or just the fanily Hylidae? Or some other obscure definition?
Second of all, a lot of tree frogs are great swimmers and spend a lot of time in the water (Theloderma corticale and Hyla arborea, for example, where one of them are even a member of Hylidae) and therefor it's no harm at all.

So, the problem here is the termology. "Tree frog" is too unspecific to find any relevant information. It would be much wiser to do the research on a species-to-species basis. I've heard people say that they've had to help a Agalychnis callidryas to actually get out from a slippery water bowl. If it's true or not, I do not know. But it enough to make me a little bit catious, especially since the callidryas don't even need much (or any) water.

Lastly, about their need of water to breed: The case with many tree frogs (especially in the Agalychnis-genus) is that they do indeed need a water source, since the tadpoles needs water. However, many lay their eggs on leaves above the water, and not actually in the water. Some spend some time at the surface (haning from a branch or other vegitetation) to absorb water for the eggs, and some fully enters the water. It all depends on the species.

It is no surprise to me , that Martin has responded with valuable information!

Sharing my past mistake! I had a large ( 50/50 ) undercover, water area in my very first A callidryas enclosure almost three years ago. One of the very most upsetting memories I have , was witnessing a young red eye struggling in the water area.......even with plenty of things to help him climb out! If I were not lucky enough to witness the accident he would have drowned..........for sure. They will benefit from a well kept, sallow, soaking water dish!
Lynn

[wesleybrouwer]

The myth of frogs drowning is in my point of view caused by people finding a dead frog upside down in the water.
Frogs seek relief in the water when in pain or whatever.
A healthy frog just doesn't drown that easy.
They climb up a straight glass wall, but wouldn't they be able to climb out a waterpart?........
Wether frogs have webbed feet or not doesn't show you their ability to swim,
all frogs can swim in case they need to.
Dead frogs in a water part isn't caused by being unable to swim but by an underlying cause that made them go in the water for relief.
Again, healthy frogs don't drown that easily.

[Surrealasm]

To say "tree frogs can drown and are bad swimmers" is just plain wrong, because it's just to unspecific. First of all, what's the definition of tree frog in this question. All frogs that dwells in trees, or just the fanily Hylidae? Or some other obscure definition?

I have a feeling you weren't responding to me, just pointing out at the start of the thread I chose to use White's tree frog as an example (because that is the frog I'm doing research on).

The statement that Wesly made (forgive me not quoting it, I'm still trying to figure out how to do all the things on this forum) about only unhealthy frogs being found in the water seems to be the real cause of the myth. I keep coming across that time and time again on the other forums I was browsing.

Furthermore, I present to you all, a couple of neat aquatic vivariums where the White's tree frogs look happy as can be:

[Just a disclaimer, turn down you volume on this one; guy who made it is blaring some crappy rock music](Feeding my whites tree frog. - YouTube)

[Here is another pretty cool one, although this guy needs to get rid of all the goldfish and switch them for sword tails or something>.<](Dumpy Tree Frog Aquatic Terrarium w/Variety of Tropical Freshwater Fish - YouTube)




Oh yeah and thank you Martin and Wesley for confirming my suspicions. Now if we can only try to control the mass amount of mis-information out there...

[BlueisallIneed]

I have a feeling you weren't responding to me, just pointing out at the start of the thread I chose to use White's tree frog as an example (because that is the frog I'm doing research on).

The statement that Wesly made (forgive me not quoting it, I'm still trying to figure out how to do all the things on this forum) about only unhealthy frogs being found in the water seems to be the real cause of the myth. I keep coming across that time and time again on the other forums I was browsing.

Furthermore, I present to you all, a couple of neat aquatic vivariums where the White's tree frogs look happy as can be:

[Just a disclaimer, turn down you volume on this one; guy who made it is blaring some crappy rock music](Feeding my whites tree frog. - YouTube)

[Here is another pretty cool one, although this guy needs to get rid of all the goldfish and switch them for sword tails or something>.<](Dumpy Tree Frog Aquatic Terrarium w/Variety of Tropical Freshwater Fish - YouTube)

I am basing my experience of 15.5 years. Each there own. Whites tree frogs are not great swimmers. Just like people say not to handle Them much. Mine went all over the place with me. So good luck with what you do.

[Surrealasm]

I understand what you're saying. The problem is that a healthy frog isn't going to want to swim, and if it does take a dive, it will be able to get out of the water. So in essence, having water is a non-issue. Furthermore, frogs don't breathe like we do, they breathe through their skin, so even in a soaking dish they can decide to completely submerge themselves and they'll still be okay.

[Pactolus]

I understand what you're saying. The problem is that a healthy frog isn't going to want to swim, and if it does take a dive, it will be able to get out of the water. So in essence, having water is a non-issue. Furthermore, frogs don't breathe like we do, they breathe through their skin, so even in a soaking dish they can decide to completely submerge themselves and they'll still be okay.

so even in a soaking dish they can decide to completely submerge themselves and they'll still be okay.

What? They still have to have air to breath.

[BlueisallIneed]

Tree frogs can't be completely submerged in water, they have lungs. They breathe like us too, hence the nostrils they have.

[IrishRonin]

A few years ago I unfortunately had a red eye leaf frog drowned even though there was plenty of vegetation growing out of as well as into the water source. I was really disappointed in myself for letting this happen, use common scene, as I tell everyone "Its in the name". If its a Chinese water dragon... then it needs lots of water, if its a Tree frog... though they need water, its better suited for life in the trees.

[ViperJr]

I understand what you're saying. The problem is that a healthy frog isn't going to want to swim, and if it does take a dive, it will be able to get out of the water. So in essence, having water is a non-issue. Furthermore, frogs don't breathe like we do, they breathe through their skin, so even in a soaking dish they can decide to completely submerge themselves and they'll still be okay.

I'm afraid that's not totally true. There are some gas exchange through their skin, but the primary respiration is with the nostrils and lungs. If I recall correctly, there are one species of lungless frogs, but needless to say, they aren't exactlly the norm. It is very possible for them to drown when being submerged for a long peroid of time( one example is Bufo bufo, where females occasionally drown when several over-eager males all tries to mate at the same time, and the combined weight is too much for the female, so she drowns.

[SkeletalFrog]

Martin is 100% correct, and the reasoning is simple - water contains less oxygen than air. Species which respire mostly via water either have gills (which have sophisticated counter-current blood flow to maximize extraction of O2), or vastly expanded skin surfaces (as in the Lake Titicaca frog and hellbender salamanders) and live in cold, fast-flowing waters (cold water holds more O2, fast flow improves gas exchange). That's why you get fish die-offs in hot, stagnant ponds - hot water has less oxygen, still water doesn't exchange it as well with the atmosphere or mix between water layers, and it eventually reaches a point that even the highly specialized gills of fish cannot extract enough O2 to stay alive.

As far as swimming ability, I've actually never run across a healthy frog that cannot swim, and for the past 6 months I've explicitly been tossing every species I can get my hands on into a large tub of water and filming their swimming with a high-speed video camera as part of my thesis. I've not only gotten Hylid tree frogs to swim extremely well, I've gotten good swimming from spadefoot toads, fowler's toads, and even red & black walking frogs (Phrynomantis bifasicatus). The only one that doesn't swim well is Bufo asper, and that's just because they prefer to play dead, and will swim perfectly well once I turn my back. I haven't done the tests yet, but the bumblebee toads seem perfectly capable of swimming too.