Does my pac have vision problems? Advice, tips??

[DVirginiana]

I've been really worried about Trevor lately. Starting about three months ago I noticed she was missing a lot when she would go after her roaches, and she would usually only strike at them when they were crawling around the wall of her tank outlined against her substrate. Then starting about three weeks ago, she just stopped eating altogether. At first I thought she was just impacted, so I did the impaction treatment and got out a huge mass of nothing but cocofiber; no insect bits. I thought that was pretty strange, but even afterward she wouldn't even look at her roaches or crickets. Yesterday I force-fed her a worm, and she did pretty well with that.
Tonight after working about 15 minutes to get her to eat (I hide so she can't see me and just reach in with tongs and dig the dubia roaches up when they burrow). Then I turned a pretty bright light on her so I could look her over, and noticed her pupils didn't constrict. Turned it off and on several times and got no flinch like normal and her pupils didn't change at all.
Then I took one of the silversides I have for my snakes (I'm familiar with them as a food, they have no salt content. Still I only fed part of one) and put it right in front of her face. She took it the second it touched her. Thing is, they smell horrible, so she wouldn't have to see to get it.
One more thing... To keep her heat up in our house during winter, she had a 100 watt bulb (It was the only way even with the heat pad, we lived in a really drafty log house and my room opened directly to outside). When I was at home I always made sure it was either not pointed directly at her or had a scarf over part of the cage so she was only getting 'twilight level' light. But then I had to leave for my last semester at school, and I'm not sure if my mother kept doing that. Could that have caused this over such a short time?

I'm thinking the pupil thing isn't neurological since she's still burrowing, eating her shed, and being generally grumpy like always. Does anyone on here have a frog with bad vision, and if so do you have any tips for feeding?? I don't want to stress her any more than I have to, and other than not eating she seems completely healthy.

[IvoryReptiles]

Pictures of the frog please.

Also, if she was in fact impacted, why are you STILL feeding her on the substrate????
If one heat pad wasn't working to heat the enclosure, then multiples would be preferable to the 100 watt bulb. Sounds like you basically blinded the frog with it.....especially if it is an albino.

If the frog cannot see, tong feeding will be your only course of action and preferably keep the frog on damp paper towels instead of the fiber it has been ingesting.

[DVirginiana]

The force-feed was done outside the cage (obviously), and the silverside was taken from tongs and never touched the substrate. I didn't actually expect her to take the roaches I put in there, but I was trying to see whether she would even track them or not. But as to why I was STILL trying that, she had been so long without eating anything, I got worried and thought I would give it a try. I've been trying to feed in a separate container for about a week now, but it has never worked. I've also been trying tong-feeding inside the cage, but she rarely takes them.

My mother refused to allow me to order/use multiple or larger heating pads (and I had to sneak and heat with the bulb) because she was afraid of it being a fire hazard. I don't need to be told that it wasn't; I already know that, but at the time I didn't have my own place so I had no say in the matter. The frog isn't an albino. While I was present, I can safely say that the frog wasn't blinded. Through the scarf that I used as a 'blinder', the light is only slightly brighter than a red night bulb. However, I am unsure if my instructions were followed for about a three or four month period where I wasn't able to personally care for her. Additionally, I always monitor her feedings. I pack down the coco-fiber and keep the roaches in easy-to-get positions, and she doesn't ingest a lot of substrate even when she misses. While I was gone, I believe roaches were just tossed in and left, which could have lead to her eating a lot of substrate going after ones that had burrowed.

There is no need to be rude. There were other things at play that I had no control over for a long time. I only just found out this week that my instructions for how to care for them weren't followed like they should have been. I just moved, so I finally have all my reptiles again, and don't have to change their care based on someone else (and also have no clue where my camera and charger are). I've been doing damage-control for several of them, and I'm not happy about it. I had been told that they were all 'fine' and came home to find that that was not the case.

REGARDLESS; she started acting very strange late last night, pupils still not constricting or anything, and she was very bloated looking. I put her in a dish of water to soak for awhile, because it was 4 am and I couldn't think of anything else to do. She peed, and started to become more active. About ten minutes after the soak I checked on her again and her pupils were reacting to light again. I dangled a nightcrawler in front of her, and she tracked it but never took it which wasn't surprising given that she was probably really stressed out. She seems to be doing better this morning.
I have no idea what was going on, but it seems to be getting better.

[morgan]

Don't feel too bad ... Here's a video of my Fantasy missing a nightcrawler. I swear he gets drunk on the smell of worms.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB5-...e_gdata_player

[Frogger05]

I saw a show one time where a dog acquired cataracts from walking in the snow while the sun was shining. The sun was reflecting off of the snow and since the dog was looking down at the snow while hiking with his owner, he was partially blinded. Maybe this happened to your frog. Maybe the light (even if dulled with a scarf) was shining into the water and the frog looked at the water while he was in it. And who knows, maybe in those 4 or 5 months while you were away your mom did something that could have caused this.I hope he gets better soon!

[GrifTheGreat]

A build up of toxins could cause blindness. Several things actually including fat deposits behind the eyes.

I would have to say that the bulb is the culprit here. What kind of bulb was it? Also note that these frogs cannot see directly infront of their nose which is one reason they burrow with the ground at eye level.

[DVirginiana]

A build up of toxins could cause blindness. Several things actually including fat deposits behind the eyes.

I would have to say that the bulb is the culprit here. What kind of bulb was it? Also note that these frogs cannot see directly infront of their nose which is one reason they burrow with the ground at eye level.

The thing I'm confused about is that after the soak, her pupils started constricting again like they should. At first I didn't think it was toxins or neurological, but after last night's weirdness I'm starting to wonder... I've checked her several times today and her eyes seem to be normal now. What could cause that? It's been less than three weeks since his last substrate change and his water gets changed every day, but I'm going to do another substrate change tonight just to be safe.

Now that I've moved, I have all my cold-blooded critters in their own room where the vent is closed so I can keep her temps right using only a heat pad and sometimes a red night-time bulb.

I didn't know they couldn't see right in front of their noses.

[IvoryReptiles]

I was not being rude, I was responding to your questions. I had a few questions of my own, they are valid questions. These frogs can learn a schedule & to feed from tongs. I know this for a fact.

Grif is right about toxins being a possible cause as well. And since you already stated that the frog was not being taken care of correctly, then chances are the person taking care of it in your absence probably didn't bother to use de-chlorinated water, which could be a cause of blindness. The chlorine in the water can cause all kinds of physical & neurological issues for amphibians.

As for your "blinded" 100 watt bulb......whether or not the frog is an albino, these are NOCTURNAL frogs. They rarely are out & active during daylight. So even though you masked the bulb, did the care taker?
As for the "other things at play".....how would I know that? You never mentioned those details, I don't read minds, so I responded to what little information YOU gave.

We do our best here to help, but we can't be expected to know more than what you inform us on as far as your situation goes. I would really also like to know exactly what part of my response you considered "rude" since all I did was answer you.

[GrifTheGreat]

The thing I'm confused about is that after the soak, her pupils started constricting again like they should. At first I didn't think it was toxins or neurological, but after last night's weirdness I'm starting to wonder... I've checked her several times today and her eyes seem to be normal now. What could cause that? It's been less than three weeks since his last substrate change and his water gets changed every day, but I'm going to do another substrate change tonight just to be safe.

Now that I've moved, I have all my cold-blooded critters in their own room where the vent is closed so I can keep her temps right using only a heat pad and sometimes a red night-time bulb.

I didn't know they couldn't see right in front of their noses.

Think about it. Their eyes are on top of their head and to the side. They can see beside, behind, and in front of them to a degree, but the cannot see cross eyed like we and so many other animals can due to the position of their eyes. Anywhere directly infront between the eyes they can't see which is why they can since movement with their noses. Pyxies can also do this. A lot of people don't know this about them so don't beat your self up.

I would have whatever water source your using tested and whatever food you're feeding her. Find out where it comes from and check to see if its possible any chemicals could be in these.

Chemicals don't always do damage until they have built up in the frogs system. Urinating probably reneged some of the chemical content and fresh water being absorbed deluged some that was left. You may want to do weekly soaks to remove chemicals from her system and if your de-chlorinating agent is old get rid of it and buy a new bottle because they can weaken over time and not be as affective.

[DVirginiana]

I was not being rude, I was responding to your questions. I had a few questions of my own, they are valid questions. These frogs can learn a schedule & to feed from tongs. I know this for a fact.

Grif is right about toxins being a possible cause as well. And since you already stated that the frog was not being taken care of correctly, then chances are the person taking care of it in your absence probably didn't bother to use de-chlorinated water, which could be a cause of blindness. The chlorine in the water can cause all kinds of physical & neurological issues for amphibians.

As for your "blinded" 100 watt bulb......whether or not the frog is an albino, these are NOCTURNAL frogs. They rarely are out & active during daylight. So even though you masked the bulb, did the care taker?
As for the "other things at play".....how would I know that? You never mentioned those details, I don't read minds, so I responded to what little information YOU gave.

We do our best here to help, but we can't be expected to know more than what you inform us on as far as your situation goes. I would really also like to know exactly what part of my response you considered "rude" since all I did was answer you.

I said that the bulb was the only way at the time I could keep my frog warm, I didn't feel like giving a full explanation of my living situation and all the various personal reasons it was the only option (didn't think most people would care to read it). Knowing that I was not allowed to purchase multiple or larger heating pads and had to sneak and use the bulb is just extraneous information, since I already gave the info about how the frog was kept and had said that it was the only option at the time.

What came across as rude was the general tone of your comment "Also, if she was in fact impacted, why are you STILL feeding her on the substrate????". She hasn't eaten properly in several weeks, and I'm scared of stressing her by continuing to force-feed. I've been trying to get her to tong-feed more readily, but it's going very slowly. I was trying anything I could to get her to take food, and feeding the way she's always been fed seemed to be a good way to do that. Had I noticed her ingesting cocofiber (isn't cocofiber considered safe to ingest in pretty small amounts?), I would have pulled the food out.
Also, when someone has already stated that another person was the one who may have not been taking proper care of their animal, "you basically blinded your frog" just sounds insensitive and isn't helpful when the frog isn't being kept that way anymore.

Sorry if I misinterpreted, but your response sounded very accusatory.

***

I know that they are nocturnal. The black scarf blocked enough of the light to put her in a twilight level of light. In my first post I said that I don't know if the bulb was 'blinded' after I left. The caretakers were TOLD to keep doing it, but I have no way of knowing for sure.
The one thing I do know for certain is that dechlorinated, deaminated spring water was used. I purchased large amounts before I left and they were all that was used.

I've been trying for awhile now to get her to tong feed. Sometimes it works, but she's never had the best feeding response, and she rarely takes more than one food item per feeding from the tongs. It's almost like I have to trick her into taking it, and she won't take a second roach/worm/whatever from the tongs. I'm going to post another comment with the stuff I just saw her do in it, but regardless I would like to start tong feeding (I don't think it's vision anymore...). Are their any tricks with timing or technique that might help?

[DVirginiana]

Okay, so this is really strange. I got her up and put her in her water dish, and she was being normal. I offered a roach and she started tracking it (the fiber was packed down so she wouldn't ingest much even if she struck and missed). I had already try tong-feeding for like ten minutes, and she was just ignoring it. Suddenly, with no change in the light, her pupils were just BLOWN and she sort of 'relaxed' from her alert stalking position into a sitting position. At this point her pupils wouldn't change even when I put a bright light on. She didn't seem to be in any distress and, when I touched her she would still move away. What could this be? A seizure or something? If it's a tox problem, would it get worse/better/worse like that with no real changes?? I'm about to go check and see if they've changed again...

Think about it. Their eyes are on top of their head and to the side. They can see beside, behind, and in front of them to a degree, but the cannot see cross eyed like we and so many other animals can due to the position of their eyes. Anywhere directly infront between the eyes they can't see which is why they can since movement with their noses. Pyxies can also do this. A lot of people don't know this about them so don't beat your self up.

I would have whatever water source your using tested and whatever food you're feeding her. Find out where it comes from and check to see if its possible any chemicals could be in these.

Chemicals don't always do damage until they have built up in the frogs system. Urinating probably reneged some of the chemical content and fresh water being absorbed deluged some that was left. You may want to do weekly soaks to remove chemicals from her system and if your de-chlorinating agent is old get rid of it and buy a new bottle because they can weaken over time and not be as affective.

I breed my own dubia roaches, so they should be fine... When I give her nightcrawlers, they are the walmart kind that I have used for my snakes for twelve years. Those are okay, right?
I've always bought spring water for her. I use the same kind for everything. I'll look it up and make sure... I'll probably pick a specific brand and buy only that from now on. I think I'll try Poland Spring. I've heard people (I don't remember if it was here or another forum) say that it worked well for their frogs.

At this point idk if there's anything to do other than really start monitoring the water I give her...

[GrifTheGreat]

Okay, so this is really strange. I got her up and put her in her water dish, and she was being normal. I offered a roach and she started tracking it (the fiber was packed down so she wouldn't ingest much even if she struck and missed). I had already try tong-feeding for like ten minutes, and she was just ignoring it. Suddenly, with no change in the light, her pupils were just BLOWN and she sort of 'relaxed' from her alert stalking position into a sitting position. At this point her pupils wouldn't change even when I put a bright light on. She didn't seem to be in any distress and, when I touched her she would still move away. What could this be? A seizure or something? If it's a tox problem, would it get worse/better/worse like that with no real changes?? I'm about to go check and see if they've changed again...



I breed my own dubia roaches, so they should be fine... When I give her nightcrawlers, they are the walmart kind that I have used for my snakes for twelve years. Those are okay, right?
I've always bought spring water for her. I use the same kind for everything. I'll look it up and make sure... I'll probably pick a specific brand and buy only that from now on. I think I'll try Poland Spring. I've heard people (I don't remember if it was here or another forum) say that it worked well for their frogs.

At this point idk if there's anything to do other than really start monitoring the water I give her...

If the worms are dye and chemical free they should be fine.

You may want to take Trevor to the Vet for a checkup. Also have a fecal exam done. Something is not right. Does she get exposes to UVB light a lot from maybe sunlight?

[DVirginiana]

If the worms are dye and chemical free they should be fine.

You may want to take Trevor to the Vet for a checkup. Also have a fecal exam done. Something is not right. Does she get exposes to UVB light a lot from maybe sunlight?

Yeah, the worms are dye and chemical free.

I would really love to do that, but I just got married and moved into a new place and neither of us have started work yet... If I can find an exotic vet willing to give me advice over the phone, maybe. Like, if it was something treatable I would definitely stretch the budget to swing an office visit, but I just can't do the thing where I bring the frog in and get vague answers and maybe have to bring it back multiple times.

There's one window in the room, but I imagine she gets very little light from it. I do have a UVB light I use for my turtle, but his tank is on the floor and Trevor's is on a table. She doesn't get direct light from the turtle's lamp, but she's probably getting a little exposure. The turtle's setup wasn't in the same room as Trevor's until I moved, so that is something that's just happened within the last week. Could that be the issue? I didn't know UVB could cause problems... What does it do to them?

His eyes were dilating and constricting like normal again when I checked last. At least that's good. Trevor has never been super healthy, and it's always been a struggle to get her to eat well for more than a week or two at a time... Do you think this could have been going on longer since the pupil thing seems to only be happening for a minute or so at a time?

[IvoryReptiles]

There was no tone in my post. I wasn't accusing you of anything you didn't do.....I simply asked the reasoning behind it. You stated the frog took a massive dump of nothing but coco fiber. Seeing that, common sense says something needs to be changed.
It's not accusing, it's fact. You threw your extraneous details at me after my original post because you felt I had a "Tone"...... the details do matter. The reasons are your own business, but the situation was all I needed.
What you are describing sounds like toxic shock...............I would recommend using de-chlorinated tap water. Most bottled waters are tap water....period. Whatever you do, don't use distilled water.
Have a camera on your phone? Take some pictures and post them if possible.

[GrifTheGreat]

Yeah, the worms are dye and chemical free.

I would really love to do that, but I just got married and moved into a new place and neither of us have started work yet... If I can find an exotic vet willing to give me advice over the phone, maybe. Like, if it was something treatable I would definitely stretch the budget to swing an office visit, but I just can't do the thing where I bring the frog in and get vague answers and maybe have to bring it back multiple times.

There's one window in the room, but I imagine she gets very little light from it. I do have a UVB light I use for my turtle, but his tank is on the floor and Trevor's is on a table. She doesn't get direct light from the turtle's lamp, but she's probably getting a little exposure. The turtle's setup wasn't in the same room as Trevor's until I moved, so that is something that's just happened within the last week. Could that be the issue? I didn't know UVB could cause problems... What does it do to them?

His eyes were dilating and constricting like normal again when I checked last. At least that's good. Trevor has never been super healthy, and it's always been a struggle to get her to eat well for more than a week or two at a time... Do you think this could have been going on longer since the pupil thing seems to only be happening for a minute or so at a time?

I'd say there could be some problems from perhaps your parents not following all your instructions. Multiple things possibly at work here. The UVB wouldn't pass farther than 12" at least in most bulbs. Plus it doesn't pass through multiple layers of glass well. UVB can cause blindness and skin issues if they are exposed to it to much. A build up of Vitamin D3 could cause issues from too much UVB Radiation.

For now I would keep a close eye on her make sure everything is kept clean.

Do you clean with bleach??

[DVirginiana]

I'm having a hard time getting more than one quote in my response...

Jessica:
I'll see if I can get a picture from my phone that is decent enough to actually see anything. The bloating thing seemed to go away after last night's soak. Other than that, she looks completely normal except when her pupils are blown. I'll try and catch that happening again.

UGH, I had asked on a separate frog forum about that when I first got Trevor, and was told spring water was fine to use. I can't believe I've been using something that could harm her all this time. Prime water purifier should be fine, right? It's pretty high quality, and works great for fish.
I've never used distilled.

I'd say there could be some problems from perhaps your parents not following all your instructions. Multiple things possibly at work here. The UVB wouldn't pass farther than 12" at least in most bulbs. Plus it doesn't pass through multiple layers of glass well. UVB can cause blindness and skin issues if they are exposed to it to much. A build up of Vitamin D3 could cause issues from too much UVB Radiation.

For now I would keep a close eye on her make sure everything is kept clean.

Do you clean with bleach??

I think it's probably too far away to be causing the problem though if it doesn't go much further than 12 inches... I might rearrange the angle of turtle's light just out of paranoia though.
I'm hoping that a tank cleaning might improve things.
I've never used bleach to clean, only vinegar.

[GrifTheGreat]

I'm having a hard time getting more than one quote in my response...

Jessica:
I'll see if I can get a picture from my phone that is decent enough to actually see anything. The bloating thing seemed to go away after last night's soak. Other than that, she looks completely normal except when her pupils are blown. I'll try and catch that happening again.

UGH, I had asked on a separate frog forum about that when I first got Trevor, and was told spring water was fine to use. I can't believe I've been using something that could harm her all this time. Prime water purifier should be fine, right? It's pretty high quality, and works great for fish.
I've never used distilled.



I think it's probably too far away to be causing the problem though if it doesn't go much further than 12 inches... I might rearrange the angle of turtle's light just out of paranoia though.
I'm hoping that a tank cleaning might improve things.
I've never used bleach to clean, only vinegar.

Good bleach can be deadly if not completely washed out. Prime works very well.

[IvoryReptiles]

We use Prime and it is the best!!
The bloat may be a bacterial infection. The frog may have parasites on board as well.
The problem here is that none of us are vets and we can try to narrow down the problems, but in the end, the best bet would be a vet......do some research and call a few and see if they are willing to give advice over the phone.
I hope it all gets solved soon!!

[DVirginiana]

We use Prime and it is the best!!
The bloat may be a bacterial infection. The frog may have parasites on board as well.
The problem here is that none of us are vets and we can try to narrow down the problems, but in the end, the best bet would be a vet......do some research and call a few and see if they are willing to give advice over the phone.
I hope it all gets solved soon!!

The good news is the weird bloating hasn't happened again since that first night.
I'll look up some in the area and see if they'll help out over the phone. At least there should be some exotic vets around since I'm in a larger city now. If I get any helpful info I'll put it up.

[GrifTheGreat]

The good news is the weird bloating hasn't happened again since that first night.
I'll look up some in the area and see if they'll help out over the phone. At least there should be some exotic vets around since I'm in a larger city now. If I get any helpful info I'll put it up.

Hopefully you can find a good vet. :-) You should be able to have a fecal exam done by almost any vet, even if they don't see exotic animals (parasites are parasites after all). Most vets will let you drop off a fecal sample and they'll examine it for a small fee (varies depending on what type of test method they use and whether they do it in house or have to send it out). I would call around and see who is willing to do that. Keep us posted.