Introduction and seeking advice, got a free fantasy pacman.

[Pluke]

Ok, first I'll start by telling you who I am.. I'm Luke, from Michigan. Nice to meet you.

I've been lurking in these forums for about 2 weeks. Debating on what kind of frogs to get, dart or pacman I've been wanting darts since for a while. After doing my research I decided I'd do both.. but start with a pacman while I build up a vivarium for some darts, I want them to be as comfortable as possible from the get go. Today I went to the Taylor, MI reptile expo and to my surprise it was pretty decent, although very little pacman frogs. I came upon a booth and I saw the pacman I was after, a perfect green fantasy. I was shocked, only $10! Buuuutt.. yah, I talked to the guy and the he told me how he has had the frog since DECEMBER and it hasn't grown a bit, he acted as if it never even eats, he seemed kind of unsure, it was his first time doing the show and he mainly had dart frogs, selling pre-made vivariums, not too bad for $100 with a cobalt blue. Anyways, about the fantasy.. The frog appears to be kind of gimpy, he has movement issues it seems.. he said he had him checked out and that it may be an ear infection? And that if that's the case there isn't much that can be done.. to me, this doesn't sound right. The guy offered me the frog for free, I took him up on the offer. I know this might not sound to great for a beginner, but well.. I couldn't turn the little guy down. Kind of felt meant to be. I'm not a complete newbie to reptiles/amphibians as I've grown up always having them and living around them. Just haven't had any for the passed 10-15 years.. time flies. Btw, the guy that gave me the frog, all his other stuff looked real healthy, he just didn't know much about Pacmans which he stated himself.

After I got the frog I took him over to another guys booth and he says he thinks it's a real big calcium deficiency which to me sounds possible since you can see a little curvature in his spine, he said that deformations in hybrid frogs aren't too uncommon and that makes more sense to me rather than an ear infection. The guy who gave him to me said he gave the frog calcium, but then before that acted like he's never even seen the frog eat, yet it's alive and he's had it for months.. Anyways. Yeah, I bought a perfectly healthy looking Green pacman for $15 as well, he's the size of a quarter. Got them both water dishes and 5.5 gallon tanks. They are in their new homes and have nothing but eco-earth as substrate and their water dishes, with a bit of moss in it. I won't put moss in the water again come tomorrow. This was just from the containers they came in, I was just trying to introduce them as comfortably as possible and they needed some moisture. So far they haven't eaten and I haven't tried to force them, I bought them crickets and some hornworms that I plan to try and breed. As well as repashy MultiVit+Cal to coat their food.

Now.. questions, What are your thoughts on the fantasy? Can their growth be stunted? Will he be Silver Dollar size forever? Should I be concerned that these guys aren't eating yet? I feel like I should let them acclimate a bit longer or wait til later tonight before trying to feed them again. Maybe throw some crickets in with them before I go to bed. I wiggled some food in front of the little guys face, he tried to eat and missed, then refused to try again, so I left him alone. The fantasy refused to even try, he seems rather stressed, sad even. I can't expect to much from him, but will do my best to make his life the best I can.

Here are some pics (hopefully I do it right), I didn't get better ones because lighting is bad and I didn't want to flash them too much as it's getting dark and I'm hoping they'll become active..

Hope that covers it, sorry for the wall of text. Green Pacman on the Left, Fantasy on the right.

[GrifTheGreat]

Its possible that the Fantasy has MBD(Metabolic Bone Disease), but Scoliosis is the cause of the deformed spine. If the Fantasy never received any Calcium with Vitamin D3 then it could be MBD. They need D3 to properly metabolize calcium into their bones. It may stay that way. They can be stunted, but it all depends on how old the frog is. Give both of them some Time to adjust to their new home and add some cover like a fake plant with large broad leaves and cover 3 sides with some sort of dark background for severity

Temps need. to be 80° to 82° during the day and 75° to 79° at night, but hover around 78° humidity 75% to 80% with 80% being the ideal level.

[Pluke]

Alright, thanks Grif I knew I should have bought those hanging plants that I had in my hand. Bleh.. guess I'll be making another stop at the petshop tomorrow. The plants just look so bad, but if it makes them happy, I'll get it. Do you suggest putting an all black background in or are natural looking background ok as long as they're darker? And what are your thoughts on leaving crickets in the tank with them overnight? I heard someone say that the crickets will bite the frog if given the chance..

[Ra]

Thats not a Fantasy Frog.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thats not a Fantasy Frog.

You're right Ra that is a Ceratophrys Joezeirensis(Caatinga Horned Frog).

[GrifTheGreat]

Alright, thanks Grif I knew I should have bought those hanging plants that I had in my hand. Bleh.. guess I'll be making another stop at the petshop tomorrow. The plants just look so bad, but if it makes them happy, I'll get it. Do you suggest putting an all black background in or are natural looking background ok as long as they're darker? And what are your thoughts on leaving crickets in the tank with them overnight? I heard someone say that the crickets will bite the frog if given the chance..

A natural background is fine. Black would be bad because they can see their reflection in it. As Ra said though. That is not. A Fantasy frog. Its a Ceratophrys Joezeirensis(Caatinga Horned Frog).

[Pluke]

Oh wow, that's surprising. I was looking at mikes Caatinga's wishing I could afford to get one and figured I'd just settle for a Fantasy if I found one at the Expo.. I really hope I can pull this guy through, maybe with a good permanent home and the right care he'll start to rehabilitate. I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks for your help so far.

[GrifTheGreat]

Oh wow, that's surprising. I was looking at mikes Caatinga's wishing I could afford to get one and figured I'd just settle for a Fantasy if I found one at the Expo.. I really hope I can pull this guy through, maybe with a good permanent home and the right care he'll start to rehabilitate. I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks for your help so far.

You're welcome.

[Pluke]

Just wanna give an update on these guys, my little baby ate about 10 small crickets last night.. I threw some in his cage and he gave me the Dramatic squirrel look and started chasing them down.. it was awesome. As for the Caatinga... he still won't eat, I put some crickets in the cage with him, he started to move a little bit and then stopped. He seems to have a real problem with his back legs, movement for him is an issue. I tried to feed him Hornworms with tongs after he started moving but he just refuses. He tends to close his eyes and keep them shut for a few minutes, now and then. Which I'm not sure is normal, seeing as my other one never closes his eyes unless eating. I'm not going to try and feed the Caatinga again until tonight around midnight, I'll throw some crickets without hind legs in there so it's easier for him if he wants food.

How long do you think I should wait before trying to give him hornworms with tongs again? I don't know when the last time he ate was, should I just leave him alone for a couple days throwing while giving crickets or should I continue to try and feed him at night with tongs? I won't go as far to force feed him yet seeing as he is kind of fat right now. I just want this guy to get comfortable/eat something..

Also how do you guys feel about driftwood in a pacman tank? I have plenty of nice pieces and was thinking of putting a piece in and growing some moss on it.. (not on ground level so there won't be a risk of moss ingestion)

[GrifTheGreat]

Just wanna give an update on these guys, my little baby ate about 10 small crickets last night.. I threw some in his cage and he gave me the Dramatic squirrel look and started chasing them down.. it was awesome. As for the Caatinga... he still won't eat, I put some crickets in the cage with him, he started to move a little bit and then stopped. He seems to have a real problem with his back legs, movement for him is an issue. I tried to feed him Hornworms with tongs after he started moving but he just refuses. He tends to close his eyes and keep them shut for a few minutes, now and then. Which I'm not sure is normal, seeing as my other one never closes his eyes unless eating. I'm not going to try and feed the Caatinga again until tonight around midnight, I'll throw some crickets without hind legs in there so it's easier for him if he wants food.

How long do you think I should wait before trying to give him hornworms with tongs again? I don't know when the last time he ate was, should I just leave him alone for a couple days throwing while giving crickets or should I continue to try and feed him at night with tongs? I won't go as far to force feed him yet seeing as he is kind of fat right now. I just want this guy to get comfortable/eat something..

Also how do you guys feel about driftwood in a pacman tank? I have plenty of nice pieces and was thinking of putting a piece in and growing some moss on it.. (not on ground level so there won't be a risk of moss ingestion)

If the Hornworms are small enough you could set it confront of him and see if he'll go for it. He probably has never been tong Fed so he has to learn eventually. Right now its just scaring him.

Driftwood is fine and the moss should be fine as long as there is no possible way for them to eat any.

You can just offer the crickets without their hind legs again for your Caatinga and leave him be. Make sure you dust the crickets with calcium powder every other feeding or every 2nd feeding.

[GrifTheGreat]

Sorry to disappoint you again, but your frog isn't a Caatinga. I'm not quite certain what species it is yet. I'm doing some investigating.

[GrifTheGreat]

Well Pluke I do believe you do have a Fantasy Frog, BUT not a normal one. It would appear that someone may have bred a Green Caatinga with a C. Cornuta. This is an usual cross and I've never seen this before, but judging from color and appearance plus the bone structure issues it has is due to hybridization. These skeletal issues and leg problems are not uncommon with hybrids. It actually happens a lot.

[Pluke]

Hmm, thanks for having such interest in him Grif. I kept going back and looking at pics of the Caatinga's in mikes thread and I was seeing resemblance, but it wasn't exact. What the guy at the expo said about hybrids having deformations and your observation.. makes complete sense. Since this guy has these types of problems I'm not exactly sure what I can do other than make him comfortable. That's what I'm trying to do. Right now I have about an inch of coco-fiber in his tank and 2 inches in a corner, where I thought he'd bury himself.. but he seems to prefer the 1 inch stuff.. I went to Michael's arts and craft's store and got a great deal on some big leaved vine type plants and some suction cups.. going to line three sides of the tank with that for him to give him a lot of cover without plants all over the ground.

You think that once he's settled in a bit and ate something, giving him a little swim might help with his legs? Perhaps in a week or so? It just seems that if he'd be able to stretch/relax a bit it might help... he seems to have trouble moving in the substrate. Anyways, thanks again Grif so glad to have help like this, raising animals back in the 90's was a whole different story as far as getting advice goes.

[GrifTheGreat]

Hmm, thanks for having such interest in him Grif. I kept going back and looking at pics of the Caatinga's in mikes thread and I was seeing resemblance, but it wasn't exact. What the guy at the expo said about hybrids having deformations and your observation.. makes complete sense. Since this guy has these types of problems I'm not exactly sure what I can do other than make him comfortable. That's what I'm trying to do. Right now I have about an inch of coco-fiber in his tank and 2 inches in a corner, where I thought he'd bury himself.. but he seems to prefer the 1 inch stuff.. I went to Michael's arts and craft's store and got a great deal on some big leaved vine type plants and some suction cups.. going to line three sides of the tank with that for him to give him a lot of cover without plants all over the ground.

You think that once he's settled in a bit and ate something, giving him a little swim might help with his legs? Perhaps in a week or so? It just seems that if he'd be able to stretch/relax a bit it might help... he seems to have trouble moving in the substrate. Anyways, thanks again Grif so glad to have help like this, raising animals back in the 90's was a whole different story as far as getting advice goes.

He may begin to do better when once he gets some food, calcium, and vitamins in him, but for now he needs to settle in. It takes time anywhere from an hour to a week. he will never fully heal from the scoliosis, but as long as it doesn't get worse and the leg issue depending on what caused it may correct itself slightly, but you may have to realize that this frog may be a special needs frog for the rest if its life.

[JIvoryII]

Its a green apple thats why its got the twisted spin. if its silver dollar size give it some time to settle in.. let him be for a few days the offer food.. if he doesnt eat give him a few more days.. or give him a soak and offer cut nightcrawler on tongs tickling his lips with the worm.

[GrifTheGreat]

Its a green apple thats why its got the twisted spin. if its silver dollar size give it some time to settle in.. let him be for a few days the offer food.. if he doesnt eat give him a few more days.. or give him a soak and offer cut nightcrawler on tongs tickling his lips with the worm.

Are you sure that its a Green Apple Jim?? That's very Lime Green and my Apple is dark Green, Well darker. I guess it could be and it took after the Caatinga more.

Ok then I was half wrong again Lol! I guess he has a Caatinga x Cranwelli.

[Pluke]

Ahhh alright, haha. Mystery frog! Still need a name for him, it hasn't shown me much personality yet so it's hard right now.

Oh and Grif.. I read in another post you made that you shouldn't use distilled water on coco fiber to blow it up.. which is exactly what I did.. does this mean I'm going to have to change out my coco fiber? I have some spring water now that I bought, so it's not a problem, I just want to make sure I really have to.. you made it sound pretty crucial so I'm kind of leaning towards yes. >_<

My little green cranwelli which I think I'm going to call... Kowalski, I tried to feed him last night and he sucked in a cricket and then spit it out. He ate GOOD the night before.. soo why do you think he spit out the cricket? He didn't go after food for the rest of the night I believe, there were two crickets in his tank, I don't see them but they are probably hiding.. He still won't even try a hornworm either, even when he was horfin down crickets. I let it crawl around in front of him for quite a while, he doesn't seem interested which is a shame. I need to get him to try one of these!

[GrifTheGreat]

Ahhh alright, haha. Mystery frog! Still need a name for him, it hasn't shown me much personality yet so it's hard right now.

Oh and Grif.. I read in another post you made that you shouldn't use distilled water on coco fiber to blow it up.. which is exactly what I did.. does this mean I'm going to have to change out my coco fiber? I have some spring water now that I bought, so it's not a problem, I just want to make sure I really have to.. you made it sound pretty crucial so I'm kind of leaning towards yes. >_<

My little green cranwelli which I think I'm going to call... Kowalski, I tried to feed him last night and he sucked in a cricket and then spit it out. He ate GOOD the night before.. soo why do you think he spit out the cricket? He didn't go after food for the rest of the night I believe, there were two crickets in his tank, I don't see them but they are probably hiding.. He still won't even try a hornworm either, even when he was horfin down crickets. I let it crawl around in front of him for quite a while, he doesn't seem interested which is a shame. I need to get him to try one of these!

What you can do about the substrate is take it out and squeeze the distilled water most of the way out and then place the substrate in the spring water and then squeeze the spring water out until its at the correct moisture level desired which should be moist or heavily damp not muddy.Do this separately for each frog so you don't mix their substrates together incase one has some sort of disease. You don't want to spread the disease to the other frog. After saturated with spring water place the substrate and frogs back into their enclosures and leave them be to calm down.

You can use distilled for misting and fog machines that's it. All other water sources need to be spring water or treated tap water.

He probably spit the cricket out because of its legs. I wouldn't worry to much about it right now since he ate well the night before. These frogs can be stubborn about trying new foods so that also isn't call for alarm. Try like Jim suggested with earthworms. They are very nutritious for frogs and make an excellent staple food source. You will have to cut pieces off the earthworms/night crawlers of appropriate size for the frog you're offering them too.

[Pluke]

Where do you suggest getting Nightcrawlers from? I had some in my fridge from fishing earliar this week, but they were in bad shape and definitely didn't want my frog eating them. Do you think worms from a gas station would be fine? Just regluar nightcrawlers you'd use for fishing? My little guy didn't seem the mind the crickets legs the night before, he ate a ton of them with legs on.. didn't have trouble catching them. I tear the legs off for the Green apple though, since he can't move well.

[GrifTheGreat]

Where do you suggest getting Nightcrawlers from? I had some in my fridge from fishing earliar this week, but they were in bad shape and definitely didn't want my frog eating them. Do you think worms from a gas station would be fine? Just regluar nightcrawlers you'd use for fishing? My little guy didn't seem the mind the crickets legs the night before, he ate a ton of them with legs on.. didn't have trouble catching them. I tear the legs off for the Green apple though, since he can't move well.

They need to be dye and chemical free. No scents for attracting fish. If you have a Petsmart in your area they should have night crawlers. I believe that Wal-Mart also has some night crawlers that are dye and chemical free. never buy from bait shops or gas stations.

You should tear the legs off for both frogs. Makes them easier to catch.