Frog acting weird

[pacmanspike1]

Ok grif I'll research rite now about it and if she has most of the symptoms give me like 1 hour to look ok thank u

[pacmanspike1]

Ok I was reading about it she has 2 of the symptoms that I can see she loseing wait faster than she can gain back and she avoids food but she hasn't sheded and she doesn't have a film over or around her eyes or body

[GrifTheGreat]

Ok I was reading about it she has 2 of the symptoms that I can see she loseing wait faster than she can gain back and she avoids food but she hasn't sheded and she doesn't have a film over or around her eyes or body

She doesn't have Chytrid then. It must be neurological. If it is genetic then she may not be able to be cured. Do your best with the knowledge that's been given and possibly seek out another Vet. It doesn't hurt to get a third opinion. I am not an expert and am not as qualified to diagnose an illness, but experience can be far greater than even a specialists opinion if that Vet has never actually owned or cared for many frogs. I really wish their was more I could do.

Perhaps see if anyone has Dr. Fryes email address and see if he can help.

[EagleWeaponX]

Grif you are a very nice guy to be helping. I love to see that people like to help. Pacmanspike I am Very sorry about your pacman. Keep us updated. Prayers to you.

[GrifTheGreat]

Grif you are a very nice guy to be helping. I love to see that people like to help. Pacmanspike I am Very sorry about your pacman. Keep us updated. Prayers to you.

Thank you. I do my best.

[pacmanspike1]

So I went to the third herp vet in riverside ca and he so told me that's it wasnt fungus it has to be nurlogicacle or genetics and that my Lil girl was gonna make it but not in a comfortable way and I'm at a position that I love her but don't want her to suffer haveing a bad way of liveing with this condition what to do

[GrifTheGreat]

So I went to the third herp vet in riverside ca and he so told me that's it wasnt fungus it has to be nurlogicacle or genetics and that my Lil girl was gonna make it but not in a comfortable way and I'm at a position that I love her but don't want her to suffer haveing a bad way of liveing with this condition what to do

That decision is yours. If she is going to survive and you are willing to care for her then she will just be a special needs frog. It may correct itself and it may not.

[yarddog]

I have read all the comments and and im sorry for both of you. With my first pacman "possum jesus" i had a similar issue. frog lays almost lifeless mouth slightly open or similar to that. to the point i actually had to put a flashlight underneath her and shine through to see the heart barely beating. i searched everywhere to find answers and came across a page from a zoo stating salamanders that they thought were dead were put in the cooler and to their surprise the next day they were risen. the 5 gallon tank with heating pad i think is actually to hot and hes had a heat stress/ stroke. i know the temp say it 80ish but the air temp and where the pad actually is can be alot hotter with it only being a 5 gallon he doesnt have any way of getting away from the heat. I took my pacman and in a little bowl with just a safe amount of water and moist papertowel wrapped around him. and placed him in the fridge for about two and a half hours checking on him every 30 mins. It was my last and only resort. Pulled him out let him warm up to room temp then put him in a temp. enclosure with about an 8th of an inch of water, force fed once and within a day he started using his legs, day 2 he would be in a different spot than before day 3 he would swallow easier. day five i couldnt catch the bastard easy and got bit! mayb it will work mayb not but from what i read their body releases chemical when they over heat that cause that reaction and the also release another when chilled. maybe it counter reacts. hope so. hope your frog is playing possum like mine was.

[pacmanspike1]

So when I got home 20 mins ago I found my Lil girl flipped over on her back and I thought she was dead but when I went to pick her up and she moved but he left side of her mouth is open and she has these grey spots in her eyes now and I want to keep her but I just just want her to suffer more the. She already has but I will put the money up to make her comfortable. It when do u know when it's to much then she can take I don't want to make her live and she in pain all the time any thoughts ??

[GrifTheGreat]

So when I got home 20 mins ago I found my Lil girl flipped over on her back and I thought she was dead but when I went to pick her up and she moved but he left side of her mouth is open and she has these grey spots in her eyes now and I want to keep her but I just just want her to suffer more the. She already has but I will put the money up to make her comfortable. It when do u know when it's to much then she can take I don't want to make her live and she in pain all the time any thoughts ??

I'm very sorry. I believe it is that time. You could try and just cool her tank down some for a few day to see if she will heal some as a last resort. I wouldn't place her in the fridge like was suggested above at this point. She may be too weak for that. Just cool her tank down to mid 70°s to 78° for a few days. That cool down should help if she is going to recover at all, but she may be too far gone.

Flipping over is a sign of severe stress and you said she can't use her back legs which is strange because I can't see how she flipped over without trying to jump. She couldn't flip over if she can't use her hind legs. The decision is yours. You could try a cool down and see if she gains any mobility and begins to heal or end her suffering. Obviously she is trying to live so maybe try the cool down for a few days and see if she gains anything from it. If nothing happens and she gets worse or remains the same then putting her down is probably for the best.

I wish their was more help I could provide. I'm sorry

[pacmanspike1]

Yes I agree grif idk how she did that's that was a surprise to me .. But I'll try the cool down as a last ditch effort to try and see I'll give my Lil girl the fighting chance to live is she is up to it .. So how would I go by putting her down in a humain way But I will try the cool down to see that works but if not is there anyway I can put her down ??? Grif thank you very much for your support and help and effort for my Lil girl and heatherann thank u as well.

[GrifTheGreat]

Re: Euthinization not working HELP

Home Euthanasia of Amphibians

Death is a part of life, and just as an animal owner is responsible for giving their pet a good life, they are similarly responsible for giving it a good death. Fortunately, doing this at home is quite easy with amphibians due to their permeable skins.

Note - This page assumes that you have correctly assessed that your frog or salamander is in significant, incurable pain and/or at risk for imminent death. Please consult a veterinarian on health problems, or, if a vet is not affordable or available, amphibian experts in person or online. You don't want to euthanize a frog that could be healed completely with nothing more than some antibiotics.

I will cover all the methods I've used myself, several I haven't, and some that are not acceptable.

Physical methods:

Freezing - NOT ACCEPTABLE - While cool temperatures do reduce nerve activity, the problem with freezing is that it allows ice crystals to form in the most exposed tissues (toes, fingers, skin) long before the brain has sufficiently cooled, thereby causing pain. It is specifically advised against in the AVMA guidelines on euthanasia.

Pithing - Not suitable for home - Pithing consists of restraining the animal and quickly inserting a needle into the brain via the base of the skull, destroying the brain. If you think this seems like it could easily go wrong, you're correct - pithing should never be done by someone not experienced in it. It is generally only used in scientific settings when the use of chemicals would invalidate the results.

Other - NOT ACCEPTABLE - Assorted other "traumatic" methods have been suggested by well-meaning individuals ranging from smacking the animal against a table to stepping on it to driving over it. Needless to say, none are reliable or acceptable, especially in light of the easy availability of the chemical methods below.

Gaseous methods:

CO2 - NOT ACCEPTABLE - While CO2 gas is widely and correctly used for euthanasia in mammals, the tolerance of amphibians (and other "cold-blooded" species) to low oxygen levels means that it takes far, far too long, and can lead to acidification of the blood.

Ether & Chloroform - DANGEROUS - While technically they may be acceptable, they are not available to the general public for good reason: both are explosive. Additionally, both spontaneously decompose into even more dangerous chemicals (a poison in one case, an even stronger explosive in the other). Ether is found in engine starter fluid, but much of that fluid is simple gasoline and should not be used on amphibians.

Modern Gas Anesthetics - EXCELLENT (VET ONLY) - Various modern gas aneasthetics (such as isoflurane and desflurane) and even obsolete ones (such as halothane) are excellent for amphibian euthanasia, but cannot be acquired by the general public. However, all vets should have at least one on hand, which can be either pumped into an enclosed container as a gas, or applied directly to the frog as a liquid (these anaesthetics are typically stored as liquids and vaporized during use).

Liquid methods:

MS-222 - THE BEST - This is the gold standard of frog euthanasia, and any frog owner should keep some at hand in case of emergency. It is sold in any specialist aquarium store and through many, many websites as "MS-222", "Tricaine S" or "Finquel". Disolve in water, add 1.5x that amount in baking soda (to prevent the solution from becoming acidic), and the frog will slowly go to sleep, then pass away. Exact doses are extremely unpredictable for different species, but since overdose is the goal, 2 teaspoons of MS-222 (with 3 teaspoons of baking soda) in 1 L of water should kill even large frogs with impermeable skin (such as cane toads).

Clove Oil - GOOD - Sold at many specialist fish stores, this is another excellent option. It hasn't been extensively investigated in amphibians, and I haven't used it myself, but reports from other researchers I know suggest it works effectively. The doses for fish will be far below ideal for frogs, and again, since overdose is the goal, just increase it substantially (at least five-fold). If it's not getting it done, add more and wait a bit longer.

Benzocaine - GOOD - Available over the counter as Orajel and other contact anaesthetics, it will rapidly and painlessly euthanize any amphibian. However, you must make sure the active ingredient in Benzocaine, since alternatives will be ineffective at best, hamful at worst.

Metomidate - GOOD - Available as "Aqua-Calm" via specialist fish stores and internet vendors, this works similarly to MS-222 and clove oil. Like Clove oil, dosing is not known, so use more than the recommended amount for fish, and increase it if death has not occured.

Alcohol - NOT ACCEPTABLE - This method has been specifically ruled out by the AVMA. Given the availability of good liquid methods, there's really no reason to use it. Personally, I've seen amphibians produce pain responses upon dermal contact with alcohol, and there's little reason to think this won't happen in a dilute solution.

Assessing death

So you've put your frog or salamander in the MS-222 or other liqjuid, but how do you know it's dead? It sounds obvious, but is definitely not - as a consequence of their tolerance for low oxygen, tissues can take a long time to die, sometimes hours. The chemicals will help, but when are they done.

As an amphibian succumbs to MS-222 or other methods, it will pass through the following stages, in order: 1) Loss of righting response - the animal cannot right itself if placed on its back, and at advanced stages, may not even attempt to. 2) Loss of buccal pumping - Most amphibians breathe via lungs, which are filled by rythmic motions of the floor of the mouth. This motion will continue for some time, but once it ceases, either the muscles are paralyzed or the base of the brain has been shut down. 3) Loss of eye retraction reflex - A gentle touch or even puff of air to the eye will cause animals to blink and retract the eye. If this reflex is lost, the euthanasia is almost done. 4) Lack of heartbeat - if placed on their back under decent light, you will often be able to see the beat of a frog's heart, located slightly posterior to the forelimbs. The cessation of the heartbeat is the final indicator.

Additionally, in dead frogs, the mouth will often flop open limply, and the tongue will protrude without any muscle tone. If in doubt, leave the frog for longer.

Most importantly, if you aren't 100% comfortable with any of these techniques, please just take the frog to a vet. It's better to spend the time and cash and know that euthanasia is being done right than to take a chance and mess up.

This information was provided by the member SkeletalFrog. It is spot on info. I hope it helps.

[Heatheranne]

I'm so sorry you and your frog are going through this. Let us know how the cool down goes. I know it is very stressful for you both, and I know you are trying your very best to recover him. Hang in there. We'll be waiting to hear.

[pacmanspike1]

So I lowered the temp in my cage and brought it back up slowly and nothing happen she got worse So now I have to do the rite thing and put her down I'm so sad rite now and it's gonna be hard to do it but it has to be done don't want my Lil girl to suffer any more thank you very much for everybody's help espically griff and heatherann 😢

[Heatheranne]

I'm sorry. It's a very hard decision. I know you've tried very hard. Sometimes this may be the alternative that we don't want to think about but may be best for the frog. I've been trying to think of other treatments for you, though not being a vet, none are coming to mind. I'm sorry .

[GrifTheGreat]

I am so sorry. I wish there was another way. Just make her as comfortable as possible while she passes. She was a fighter for sure, but sometimes that isn't enough.

Don't let this experience turn you away from Pacman Frogs or any other frog though. Not every experience can be good and if you wouldn't have found her she surely would have suffered far greater than she has under your care. I also commend you for doing everything possible to care and attempt to heal her. I heart goes out to you.

Once again I am truly sorry there wasn't more we could do.

[pacmanspike1]

Yes grif I'll make sure her left is a great one and no not at all I love pacman frogs there such great and unquie animals and beautiful at that with there colors and they each have there own personality and I was planning to go the reptail mega show in Pomona fair plex this weekend not to buy just yet but to research on my Lil girls condition and go enjoy the other animals there thank u both for ur great support in this tuff situation we in

[Heatheranne]

You're welcome. It's heart breaking to lose them. You've done a great job.