keeping reptiles with tree frogs?

[arielgasca420]

like what was stated before, they will all be adults so they wouldn't be eaten, about diseases the crested i am getting is captive bred, and the frog is wild caught from Indonesia so any diseases will come from the frog not the gecko. and its hardly trial and error as they will be closely monitored.

so if the diease is not coming from the captive bred gecko than it will come from the wild caught frog. its a vice versa situation. disease can both both ways, not just one way. in my opinion your frogs will be fine, but your geckos may be doomed.
We have given you the advice you wanted, you have taken it, and now you must make an ultimate decision.
you have to understand that we all care about our animals, but Grifthegreat, blueisallineed, and myself take extra precaution because we would rather be safe than sorry. I had my pyxie frog and pacman frog in the same enclosure. although they showed no aggression towards eachother it was not a reason to keep them together. I seperated them immediately before one became the others meal.

[IrishRonin]

About 8 years ago I built a huge Paludarium, though I didn't know thats what it was called at the time, in which I kept crested and flying geckos with red eyes as well as pygmy chameleons. I had it up for 2 1/2 years without a single incident, both sets of gecko even breed, before I had to get rid of all my collection. As far as sharing a water source I had a canister filter built for 4X the amount of water it was filtering so I never had an issue. My thoughts are conflicted here the set up was VERY cool as they all just lived in harmony but I was young and didn't think before I built it. I may have been just lucky nothing happened as all the inhabitants were very healthy when I got them. Now that I'm older with much more experience I'm not sure I would do it again, but it was one of my favorite all time tanks. I hope this helped

[arielgasca420]

sounds like a cool setup and thats cool that the geckos breeded.
its really up to the keeper to decide what to mix and you were smart to stay with a pygmy chameleon.
some people would go for it and other would be hesitate to risk such a costly investment.

[BlueisallIneed]

how are you wasting your breath? clearly other animals get along in the wild, i have asked for 'advice' and you shared your thoughts which i respect, but how do you know unless you try? some people cant keep cats aswell as dogs yet others keep them both in perfect harmony. all im saying is i asked for your thoughts i have took them in and i will not be rushing into anything, dont be so fast to judge.

Not going to bother with a response hun

[IrishRonin]

Like I said it is still one of my favorite tanks that I have ever built, it was so much fun to watch cause it was active 24 hours a day. I plan I remaking it at my work, with a few changes but I'm not sure about the mixing. I agree that is up to the keeper and that your wagering a lot of money, time, effort and lives but I think with the proper research it can be done correctly, cohabitation is part of life. Just make sure no one is gonna eat each other...

[arielgasca420]

I would suggest lots of anoles! those little guys are so active all the time. geckos are not too lively and it is never recommended to put two chameleons in the same tank (they are extremely territorial)

[Deac77]

honestly why not try something from the same region crested geckos are leaf drinkers and fruit eaters so luckily the water suppl and food wont be shared how ever why not try and get cb frogs instead? even then i don't think it would work out well most mixed tanks need to be between nocturnal and diurnal animals so they don't have to compete for space you are using to nocturnal creatures that will have to share branches and trees whites are clumsy and launch for food at anything cresteds don't grow their tails back so if they lost one in a mistaken strike you have a lizard without a tail that effects ballance also whites tend to like it a little hotter than most captive born cresteds not saying that i would do it but if your going to mix just do nocturnal and diurnal animals so they dont have to compete as much i still wouldn't until you know exactly how the secretions of the skin are going to affect the animal bio 101 teaches that just because they live in the same environment doesn't mean they share the same home night and daytime life is a lot different you very rarely see to predators live together in the same place

[NatureLady]

clearly other animals get along in the wild, ......... some people cant keep cats as well as dogs yet others keep them both in perfect harmony.

This thought alone bothers me. You are not recreating earth in a viv, you are recreating a slice of a single habitat for what ever animal you wish to keep. An animals habitat is a small slice of the ecosystem and that is a slice of the even bigger community and that is a slice of the overall region and so on. When you create a viv, be it a false bottom set up, a hydroball set up, water set up or so on and so on...you are simply attempting to recreate the earth's natural way of just being. A viv is not earth and multiple species should not be expected to just happily live in a slice of a habitat we attempt to recreate and carve out for them. You are not providing them a forest to live in.

Do you think that people are just offering advice to blast your thoughts out of the water?

If you are set on doing it...the do it and don't ask for the other members to approve your idea of a mixed species tank.

Have I kept a mixed species tank, yes.

Do I think you should attempt this, no.

My answer is simple I don't think it should be done. I don't think it is a proper quality of life for the animals in question. I strive for HAPPY animals.

[mrzoggs]

why even risk the death of a precious animal when this many people have warned you? It is not hard to keep them seperated and if you would listen youve had plenty of people tyring very hard to explain to you NOT TO DO IT! i mean honestly...do you think they are lying to you? do you think this is their first rodeo? Their are plenty of good reasons why mixed species should not be mixed together and a lot have been given to you. The ONLY way i would maybe even say it might could be ok to mix (even though i still wouldnt recommend it) is if you were an expert on both species and kept a VERY close eye on them.

and since you dont seem to be taking the hint, before you put them together you need to get a fecal examination done on BOTH of them. Frogs caught from the wild OFTEN have some sort of disease. It can easily be spread but can also easily be treated with the right help. Trust me... im curing 2 frogs from a horrible infestation of hook worms... couldve just been one but its two...wanna know why? because i didnt get a fecal examination from either of them before i introduced them.

I also agree with the above post, in the wild, different species have all the room in the world...literally. In a small aquarium in your room they have next nothing compared to their natural environment. In their natural environment geckos and tree frogs would never really even come across each other. Your going to put stress on both animals. It IS a known fact that stress can kill frogs. Why put them in harms way? Especially when you can buy a seperate tank..


Edit: as stated above, frogs are toxic. whos to say the frog wont contaminate the water then the gecko catch it from that?

[mrzoggs]

and if you want more "scientific proof" heres some copy/paste action from the most knowledgable zoologist/chemist/herptologist i have ever seen on a frog forum

Originally Posted by brinkerh420 I found that it was frustrating not being able to mix species. I have a tank with a fire bellied toad and a tank with a green tree frog. The green tree frog stays at the top, the Toad stayed in the water, so it seemed like they could coexist, but I took the advice of just about every member of dendroboard, and didn't mix them. The only problem with mixing them would be 1) toxins from fire bellied toad, and 2) Fire bellied toad got all the food. anyone have anything else to add? Will

Actually those are not the only reasons to not mix species from seperate geographic regions. Mixing animals from different regions allows parasites and pathogens to jump hosts and adapt. This can result in epidemics that can cause a lot of problems such as the mycoplasma epidemic that is killing off native tortoises in the Gopherous genus (and box turtles now), ranaviruses, and there is not evidence that the strains of chyrid killing amphibians globally may be the result of more than one strain with little or low impact on the amphibians, being able to mix resulting in increased lethality.

Do not mix species from seperate regions.

The problem when you are mixing species from different geographic regions is that you are really setting the stage for a possible outbreak of pathogens/parasites. We have seen this in other animas for example the massive mortality caused by mycoplasma infections in native tortoises of the Genus Gopherus, and now box turtles. We also have seen massive mortalities from chytrid which appears to be the result of different geographical strains getting mixed together resulting in a massive pandemic. This is why the whole argument of "healthy", "stress free" or other claims are moot as this is a direct risk to the enviroment and native species already under pressure. The water that you dump down the drain or plant cuttings or substrate that is discarded is all a risk. This is one of the major reasons why animals from seperate regions should never be housed together. It is one of the simplest things we can do to protect the hobby and the enviroment. There is a petition that is under review in front of USF&W right now to ban the import and interstate transport of amphibians because of the risk of chytrid, you should do your best to help the hobby by not giving them more points as to why the hobby should be banned from interstate transport without certification that the animals, eggs or other materials are chytrid free.

Ed


"Ed is Ed Kowalski the lead keeper at the Philly zoo. He is also one of the best biologists/herpetologists I know. His experience in breadth and time beats most of ours here, myself included."



Actually folks I chose the Beginners forum for the point that this is where people tend to inquire about mixed species exhibits so this is the appropriate venue for the topic. I am breaking this into parts as otherwise the single post would be huge running the risk of losing some of the important points.

Hi Chuck,
There are few basic items that are best illustrated with a simple set-up as opposed to a complex set-up. I intend to get to the potential arboreal part soon (and will include ideas such as visual barriers, refugia etc). (I intend to address some of the hybridization issues but anura is a large genera with some possibilities that preclude hybridization problems).
The whole point to this discussion is to hopefully provide some guidelines for the people who may be considering this venture.

On to the second part of spatial needs. The following paragraph is based on the absolute minum supplied by a simple set up. The most important point is that amount of space provided by the 5 gallon/frog rule begins to break down pretty quickly.

In enclosures larger than the 5.5 gallon tank used in the example, the space not used by a frog like a tinct can be much more dramatically different as in many tanks, the height increases faster than the length and width of the tank(although there are often tanks such as 20 longs that are not as problematic.
For example a ten gallon tank is 20 long x 10 wide x 12 high giving a total of 2400 cubic inches. However if we then calculate the usable volume of the tank using the same criteria used in the 5.5 gallon tank (in the first post) we get 3 inches high x 10 inches wide x 20 inches long we get 600 cubic inches or 25% of the total volume of the tank (and only a 50% increase of the usable space of a 5.5 gallon tank).
If we then go up to a 20 gallon high tank 16.5 high x 12 wide x 24 long we get 4752 total cubic inches with a usable area of 3 x 12 x 24 = 864 cubic inches. In a 20 gallon high tank the amount of usable space drops to a low of 18% of the tank (or a total of 3.6 gallons) yet the 5 gallon/frog rule has us then placing four dart frogs in the tank. In a 20 gallon long (approximate external dimensions of 30x13x12 gets 4680 cubic inches with a usable space of 1080 cubic inches a use rate of 23% or a total of 4.6 gallons).
When looking at even larger standard enclosures such as 55 gallon aquaria (48 x 12 x 20 = 11520 total cubic inches) with a usable space of 1728 cubic inches or a total of 15% of the tank space or a total of 8.25 gallons. (Or based on the 1frog/5 gallon rule 11 frogs which would each have 157 cubic inches each or a total volume of .68 gallons each)
So the usable space indicates that there is something wrong with this method of determing density of frogs as the actual density of multifrog enclosures exceeds the 5/gallons frog limit commonly recommended by the masses as the size of the tank increases (each frog has 300 cubic inches of space/frog (using the 5 gallon/frog rule) in a ten gallon, and 270 cubic inches in a 20 long as opposed to 157 cubic inches of space in a 55 gallon). (Using ten gallons per frog is slightly better but still suffers the same drawbacks).
This then raises the question, then why are we able to keep these frogs at these densities in larger enclosures?

Part of the reason why is because the large enclosures lack floor space, they provide vertical room for decorations that allow the frogs to use more of the volume of the enclosure (but still not an equivalent volume per frog). These decorations provide visual barriers allowing the frogs to escape one another much as they would on the forest floor.

Additionally, in the larger enclosures the minimal amount of floor space decreases but the total amount of space increases. It is this other space that needs to be considered for other species.

Any further questions/comments? If not, I hope to address some of the complex enclosures items.

Ed


I apologise to the original poster for changing the subject, but Ed, in your opinion should this be standard procedure for any water change regardless of species?
I do... Yes it is acutally one of the simplest actions people in the hobby could do to demonstrate that they are concerned about preventing parasites/pathogens from jumping to native populations. People often forget that in many cities, the run off from storms enters the same treatment lines as regular sewage and in heavy storms it can result in untreated discharges into the enviroment. There is data out there now that demonstrates that some pathogens like chytrid can live for potentially more than a month in water that contains nutrients.

Ed


if you want some more reasons NOT to house different species in the same enclosure just let me know id be more than happy to use google for you

[mrzoggs]

sorry. woke up this morning and this stuff was still boggling my brain. i let ed know i used some of his information and he gave me some more information about housing different species together. pay special attention to Ed. As stated above...he is one of the best.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beg...tml#post744562

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...tml#post362778

[Shade38]

Besides the toxicity issue, all animals behaviors are different. This difference can cause a lot of stress for them cooped up together.

It would be like having a gorilla for a roommate. It wouldn't necessarily kill you, but your quality of life would not be great.

[DC101]

This thought alone bothers me. You are not recreating earth in a viv, you are recreating a slice of a single habitat for what ever animal you wish to keep. An animals habitat is a small slice of the ecosystem and that is a slice of the even bigger community and that is a slice of the overall region and so on. When you create a viv, be it a false bottom set up, a hydroball set up, water set up or so on and so on...you are simply attempting to recreate the earth's natural way of just being. A viv is not earth and multiple species should not be expected to just happily live in a slice of a habitat we attempt to recreate and carve out for them. You are not providing them a forest to live in.

Do you think that people are just offering advice to blast your thoughts out of the water?

If you are set on doing it...the do it and don't ask for the other members to approve your idea of a mixed species tank.

Have I kept a mixed species tank, yes.

Do I think you should attempt this, no.

My answer is simple I don't think it should be done. I don't think it is a proper quality of life for the animals in question. I strive for HAPPY animals.

Amanda, i couldn't have said it better myself.
No offence to the person who started this thread but its common sense really...

I don't want to have to go into detail but i think you get the point of all there people that are trying to help you avoid a disaster waiting to happen.

[mrzoggs]

i think he just ate a bowl of trollios for breakfast that morning...

[DC101]

Haha, zoggs, you funny!

[Heatheranne]

Hi sinni. I can tell you I had a bad experience with mixing species, so I'll share it so hopefully you never have this dilemma.

I was at my local mall wandering through the reptile and fish section and saw a red eyed tree frog in with geckos. When I got closer I had noticed the frog had scratch marks all down his back and had patches of dark and light green with some tan rounded spots. I took him out of there and home with me he went. He had infected scratch marks which took a month to heal with tedious care and quarantine home cleaning so he wouldn't get worse and cost me a $182 vet bill, no joke. To this day he still needs force feeding. My vet and I feel he has post traumatic stress. We believe when trying to catch the crickets by both species the frog was injured. I doubt it was intentional by the gecko, just mother natures survival of the fittest. Still not good though.

The same place now has green tree frogs in with them. I have shared with them my concerns. The frogs are always up in the corner and have a dark brown color. They are all crunched together in that corner and are thin. They look stressed.

The reason different species of animals can share the same habitats in the wild is bc the area of the rain forest is huge in comparison to a tank or cage. They learn to stay in their own areas or pass-by as need be, but they are not forced to coexist in a smaller region.

It'd be a lovely tank I'm sure. Though consideration to the less fortunate species should be though of.

Another reason for this concern is bc when I was younger and knew very little of amphibians I had some firebelly toads. They did well. My ex brought home a red spotted newt off a golf course and gave it to my daughter and my husb also found one on the train tracks at work, so we had two. The tank had land and a pond and several caves and hiding areas so I housed them together. I did water changes every week and had a waterfall filter. They all ate crickets. They never fought and shared the space well. They even swam together. The newts ended up dying. I learned the hard way. They both secrete their own toxins. I felt so bad . I did not know at the time that there was a risk. I learned from a friend here after the fact that that was why .

These are just things I've experienced, but have been valuable lessons.

Maybe a split tank with a full glass waterproofed divider might give a similar effect, though the stress factor is still a concern.

Hope this helps...

[Heatheranne]

P.S. Sorry that was such a long post...I tend to be long-winded, lol!