40G Build Diary f/ Poison Dart Frogs

[AReaHerps]

I wanted to start this thread as a diary of my new project. I've always wanted Poison Dart Frogs (PDFs) since I was wee little brat. After a weird moment of inspiration from an unlikely person at my work, I decided that I was going to commit to my goal of creating a living vivarium for some PDFs. So today I was fortunate enough to get an amazing deal on a brand new aquarium. I was planning on a 29G but this 40G was way too good to pass up. I'm still working on designs and overall ideas. I would love for all of you to share your thoughts and ideas. If you see videos or cool links, please feel free to share them. To me, this tank is like an painter's blank canvas.

I can't wait until this thing is finished and my awesome froggies are hopping around and chowing!

I'll keep you guys updated as I slowly move along with this process.

Sent from my Android Tapatalk App!

[DC101]

Looks like you'll me busy for a while
John has a great thread on how he made his 29g tank. You should check it out.

Anyway, i wish you the best of luck and ill be following you on your progress!

[AReaHerps]

LOL! I have been following that thread from the beginning! That was kind of my initial inspiration to want to create a new build but then a co-worker gave me a friendly nudge to do something better than my 5 gallon fish tank on my desk. Almost a challenge really. He's seen pics of all my other stuff and basically expressed his disappointment that I didn't do anything like that for our office.

I'll definitely be doing a styrofoam background and also a water feature. The layout/design still has not become clear to me. So much floor space to work with.

[J Teezy]

if you are looking for ideas there are tons of pics in members galleries here and youtube is stocked with videos on PDF tanks. Good luck in your adventure. Let me remind you that polystyrene is a known endocrine disruptor so keep that in mind. I've used it and have seen no ill effects but my styrofoam builds are very well protected with sealants

[ToadPaparazzi]

What kind of dart frog do you planning on working with. Are you orienting the tank vertically or horizontally? I recommend against water features... They usually become a pain in the rear. Depending on the species of PDF, a water feature might also be useless... Unless you are getting a species that utilizes communal tadpole rearing sites (I think the epipedobates (sp?), ameerega (sp?), and phyllobates species use this).

If you plan on getting a thumbnail species, most will more benefit from having a vertically oriented vivarium and will utilize bromeliads and film cups for egg and tadpole deposition.

If you are set on the idea of a water feature, keep two things in mind:

1. PDFs are not known to be very good swimmers so you will want a shallow pond with plenty of ways for them to get out.

2. If you plan on using a pump, make sure that you make it easily accessible (pumps are known to have issues and many people scrap their water features before long).

Also, leaf litter is very beneficial for PDFs and the microfauna that you will want to seed in their tank.

If you haven't cultured fruit flies before, I'd recommend getting your culturing skills and stock up at least 3-4 weeks prior to obtaining your frogs (unless you plan on spending a ridiculous amount of money every time you buy a culture.

Good luck with this adventure... PDFs are amazing little jewels!

-Christian

[J Teezy]

Fruit Flies are pretty easy to culture if you can read and follow directions. When i first started i bought a starter kit from Josh's frogs. Think it was the Deluxe Melo kit with flies. I use a sterilite 3 drawer bin for storing my cultures. Oldest on the bottom, newest in very top and rest in middle. I use the jurassimite spray to spray on paper towels that i put in each drawer to set the cultures on. I change this out on the 1st of every month. Throw out old cultures once they are 4 weeks old (i freeze the culture and then recycle my cups and lids). As mentioned leaf litter should be a must as well as seeding the tank with springtails. I didn't have springtails before i got my frogs so i ordered some from josh's and moved them into a bigger container to start a colony. After a couple weeks the colony had exploded so then once a week i add a few hundred springs to the viv. My viv has plenty of springs in it now and my colony is huge. Water features aren't really necessary and i'd steer away from one in your first build. Sure they look cool but a lot of trouble can come from them. Get an mistking, you'll thank me later. put your lights on a timer. Get some leaf litter (did we already mention this =) ). Get your isopod cultures now so you can start them producing so you will have plenty when the tank is ready to be seeded with them. Along with springtails, Giant Oranges are good tank janitors and PDFs wont eat the adults because they are too big for them.

[AReaHerps]

if you are looking for ideas there are tons of pics in members galleries here and youtube is stocked with videos on PDF tanks. Good luck in your adventure. Let me remind you that polystyrene is a known endocrine disruptor so keep that in mind. I've used it and have seen no ill effects but my styrofoam builds are very well protected with sealants

I've been on here and YouTube extensively! One of my inspirations is this vid: How to make a waterfall (rainforest theme) - YouTube What an awesome concept and execution! My plan on using polystyrene was to strengthen it with grout and then use the Seals-All. Do you know of any other product that I could use which I could pick up at a home depot or similar store? I was also planning on using silicone anywhere where there would be constant water contact though.

[J Teezy]

lizard landscapes does have some great videos. The sealer he uses is Shields All not Seals. It's only bought from the company which is in florida. It cost about as much to ship it as the product itself and you have to buy a gallon of it. I have a ton of it left over. You could probably be ok without using it if you didn't want as all in all its about $50 (20 something for product and 20 something for shipping) if you cover the whole project in silicone. I did this with my first rock wall i built as i didn't have shields all yet. That guy also has used the foam coat stuff from hotwirefoamfactory in his latest build (waterfall for a turtle tank) and i asked him what he likes better grout or foam coat and he said the foam coat. So if i ever do another styro rock build i'll probably use foam coat as well. Grout can be tricky with flaking and chipping and getting your ratio right to coat the styro. I think Kristen uses pond sealer on here vivs as her sealant

[AReaHerps]

What kind of dart frog do you planning on working with. Are you orienting the tank vertically or horizontally? I recommend against water features... They usually become a pain in the rear. Depending on the species of PDF, a water feature might also be useless... Unless you are getting a species that utilizes communal tadpole rearing sites (I think the epipedobates (sp?), ameerega (sp?), and phyllobates species use this).

If you plan on getting a thumbnail species, most will more benefit from having a vertically oriented vivarium and will utilize bromeliads and film cups for egg and tadpole deposition.

If you are set on the idea of a water feature, keep two things in mind:

1. PDFs are not known to be very good swimmers so you will want a shallow pond with plenty of ways for them to get out.

2. If you plan on using a pump, make sure that you make it easily accessible (pumps are known to have issues and many people scrap their water features before long).

Also, leaf litter is very beneficial for PDFs and the microfauna that you will want to seed in their tank.

If you haven't cultured fruit flies before, I'd recommend getting your culturing skills and stock up at least 3-4 weeks prior to obtaining your frogs (unless you plan on spending a ridiculous amount of money every time you buy a culture.

Good luck with this adventure... PDFs are amazing little jewels!

-Christian

My thoughts at this point are to keep Dendrobates auratus. I'm going off the description from Josh's Frogs website. I really want a frog that does well in groups. I figured since I have a big enough floor space, I could get more than the usual 2 or 3. Thanks for the insight on the water feature. I'm not completely sold on it yet so I definitely take your opinions to heart and really determine if I want to do that or not. One of my reasons for wanting it though was to ensure there was a consistent overall ambient humidity. I have looked into some auto misting features as well. If I did not go with a water feature then I would definitely be creating a false bottom type enclosure.

As for feeders, the only things I have not cultured in the past are springtails but from what I hear it's relatively simple. I used to culture FF when I had baby chameleons. I figure, I'm anywhere between 2-4 months from actually putting frogs in this tank. I'll definitely get some solid microfauna cultures going before I introduce the frogs.

I do have an upcoming show next weekend and I was curious if you guys have any experience on keeping frogs on basic setups (almost like a quarantine setup) and how happy they are. What I'm getting at is, if I find some really healthy and good looking frogs at the show, even though my main viv is not ready, could I house them happily in say a 10-20 gallon with nothing but essentials? Any thoughts on that would be greatly appreciated!

[AReaHerps]

lizard landscapes does have some great videos. The sealer he uses is Shields All not Seals. It's only bought from the company which is in florida. It cost about as much to ship it as the product itself and you have to buy a gallon of it. I have a ton of it left over. You could probably be ok without using it if you didn't want as all in all its about $50 (20 something for product and 20 something for shipping) if you cover the whole project in silicone. I did this with my first rock wall i built as i didn't have shields all yet. That guy also has used the foam coat stuff from hotwirefoamfactory in his latest build (waterfall for a turtle tank) and i asked him what he likes better grout or foam coat and he said the foam coat. So if i ever do another styro rock build i'll probably use foam coat as well. Grout can be tricky with flaking and chipping and getting your ratio right to coat the styro. I think Kristen uses pond sealer on here vivs as her sealant

Thank you...yes..Shields All is what I meant. Thanks for the tip on the foam coat stuff. I'll go check it out now. Thanks for the tips also on the isopods. I was planning on also getting some of those. Quick question about isopods though. Why couldn't I just grab some from my back yard and try to culture a few generations to ensure they are safe from any forms of parasites or anything else that may be nasty. We maintain a pesticide free backyard because we have a free roaming tortoise. Aren't those isopods the same just a different species? Or do I need to look specifically for tropical isopods?

[ToadPaparazzi]

My thoughts at this point are to keep Dendrobates auratus.

Auratus tend to be a very shy frog (there are some locales that can be more bold than others though)

I really want a frog that does well in groups. I figured since I have a big enough floor space, I could get more than the usual 2 or 3.

Dendrobates Leucomelas are great group frogs and a usually very bold... They are beautiful too!

Thanks for the insight on the water feature. I'm not completely sold on it yet so I definitely take your opinions to heart and really determine if I want to do that or not. One of my reasons for wanting it though was to ensure there was a consistent overall ambient humidity.

The false bottom of your tank and keeping at least 80% of your top covered along with misting will ensure this.

I have looked into some auto misting features as well. If I did not go with a water feature then I wol

Check out http://www.mistking.com or just hand mist.

I do have an upcoming show next weekend and I was curious if you guys have any experience on keeping frogs on basic setups (almost like a quarantine setup) and how happy they are.

A 10gallon tank with some damp sphagnum miss topped with leaf litter will suffice

-Christian

[ToadPaparazzi]

Thanks for the tips also on the isopods. I was planning on also getting some of those. Quick question about isopods though. Why couldn't I just grab some from my back yard and try to culture a few generations to ensure they are safe from any forms of parasites or anything else that may be nasty.

Most of the local species of Isopods take an extremely long time (well over a year) to reproduce. It only costs on average $8/starter culture of tropical Isopods. I'd recommend the following:

1. Dwarf whites
2. Dwarf purples
3. Giant oranges

The dwarf whites seem to reproduce very quickly

-Christian

[AReaHerps]

Thanks for the great response Paparazzi. I have read some conflicting articles about auratus. Most definitely say they are shy. The only thing I have against Leucs are from what I have read, they have a loud call. Is this true? I need to make sure I find a frog that also has a very quite call. This will be in my office. There is very little foot traffic. The only thing moving around is usually me sitting at my desk looking at a computer screen while trolling on FrogFurm! I really wanted something that was blue/black or bronze. I'm really in love with the idea of the Highland Blue and Bronze I think is what they are called. Would it be worth the gamble to get auratus that may or may not be shy. Any other ideas on frogs?

The false bottom on my RETF and my geckos does work great. Thanks for reminding me on that aspect. I have also added a little heat at the bottom corner of my frog tank and that does help evaporate the water a little quicker.

Is there anywhere else I can get leaf litter right away that you guys can think of? We have thousands of oaks around our area but I'm assuming I can't go and use those. Do I have to get them from a frog dealer or is there somewhere else I can get some safe leaf litter? I will get that quarantine tank setup right away! Thanks for the heads up.

[ToadPaparazzi]

Thanks for the great response Paparazzi. I have read some conflicting articles about auratus. Most definitely say they are shy. The only thing I have against Leucs are from what I have read, they have a loud call. Is this true?

Leucs do have a relatively louder call than other darts... I can hear mine clear throughout my house if the door is open.

I need to make sure I find a frog that also has a very quite call. This will be in my office. There is very little foot traffic. The only thing moving around is usually me sitting at my desk looking at a computer screen while trolling on FrogFurm! I really wanted something that was blue/black or bronze. I'm really in love with the idea of the Highland Blue and Bronze I think is what they are called. Would it be worth the gamble to get auratus that may or may not be shy. Any other ideas on frogs?

If you aren't dead-set on group frogs, d. Tinctorius are large, beautiful and very bold... Their call is almost not audible. They are always out and about but don't do well at all usually in groups; it is recommended to keep them as pairs or male-heavy trios. If you like blue and black, check out d. Tinctorius Azureus.

The false bottom on my RETF and my geckos does work great. Thanks for reminding me on that aspect. I have also added a little heat at the bottom corner of my frog tank and that does help evaporate the water a little quicker.

I wouldn't recommend adding any heat on a PDF tank... You want to keep temperatures below 80°.

Is there anywhere else I can get leaf litter right away that you guys can think of? We have thousands of oaks around our area but I'm assuming I can't go and use those. Do I have to get them from a frog dealer or is there somewhere else I can get some safe leaf litter? I will get that quarantine tank setup right away! Thanks for the heads up.

I use California live oak and magnolia leaves. Collect it from a pesticide/fertilizer-free area and bake at 325° for at least 10 minutes. It does smell a little though... I sell baked leaves (only in bulk though).

-Christian

[AReaHerps]

The original PDF I wanted was the Azureus morphs. I've been infatuated with them for years. I was so disappointed when I found out how they don't do well in groups. The other reason why I wanted Tincs in the first place was because they are the bigger species. I love that about them. I honestly feel like a 40G for 3 frogs is overkill though. The heater I use on my RETF is very low wattage and is non existent on the top of the substrate level. I figured I would be safe if I did the same for these guys. I will stear clear though and just add a way to remove/siphon the water out easily if I need to.

I use California live oak and magnolia leaves. Collect it from a pesticide/fertilizer-free area and bake at 325° for at least 10 minutes. It does smell a little though... I sell baked leaves (only in bulk though).

-Christian

I live in CA too. Central Coast actually. Monterey Peninsula. Tons of Magnolia tree around too in Salinas. Out of curiosity. Could you PM me your prices and package quantity please. I think I may prefer to purchase some as to not take any chances on making a mistake in the preparation process.

[ToadPaparazzi]

I think you would do fine gathering your own I can walk you through the process my bulk is really a lot... 40 gallons+ at $3/gallon. If you really want that much, I will be able to fill the order by next week, but I'm not sure you'll need that much leaf litter.

[J Teezy]

the loudness of a leuc call is something you need to hear to determine what loud is too you. I find it not very loud at all. I keep my tank in my office / game room as well and i actually enjoy the call, but i'm an outdoors kind of person and enjoy the sounds of nature. Barking dogs are annoying to me, calling frogs are nice. I think of it more as the frog is singing. I wish he would do it more often. You'll want some sort of false bottom drainage layer no matter how you plan on introducing humidity whether its an eggcrate style or hydroton so that you can easily remove access water. I prefer drilling my tanks for drains so i use eggcrate. As mentioned if you want something bold and active and want several i'd suggest luecs but if you want blue color Azureus but as mentioned they do best in pairs or trio of 2 male 1 female max. I strongly recommend investing in a mistking, you will be very happy with it, not to mention Marty will give you probably the best customer service you have ever received anywhere.

[AReaHerps]

I think you would do fine gathering your own I can walk you through the process my bulk is really a lot... 40 gallons+ at $3/gallon. If you really want that much, I will be able to fill the order by next week, but I'm not sure you'll need that much leaf litter.

Is there another thread already on this process? I will certainly do my homework. If not, please share either here or in a PM. I do think 40+ gallons would be way too much. I only need enough for my 10-20 quarantine. I will have time to go and collect for my main tank later. Thanks so much for your willingness to help Paparazzi. Greatly appreciate it!

[AReaHerps]

the loudness of a leuc call is something you need to hear to determine what loud is too you. I find it not very loud at all. I keep my tank in my office / game room as well and i actually enjoy the call, but i'm an outdoors kind of person and enjoy the sounds of nature. Barking dogs are annoying to me, calling frogs are nice. I think of it more as the frog is singing. I wish he would do it more often. You'll want some sort of false bottom drainage layer no matter how you plan on introducing humidity whether its an eggcrate style or hydroton so that you can easily remove access water. I prefer drilling my tanks for drains so i use eggcrate. As mentioned if you want something bold and active and want several i'd suggest luecs but if you want blue color Azureus but as mentioned they do best in pairs or trio of 2 male 1 female max. I strongly recommend investing in a mistking, you will be very happy with it, not to mention Marty will give you probably the best customer service you have ever received anywhere.

I'm totally with you Josh about enjoying the calls. I LOVE frog calls...they would put me to sleep as a kid. I need to be sensitive to others in my general work area though which is why I would prefer a quiet call. That way it never becomes annoying to anyone else. Do you know where I could find a good quality video with audio for a Leuc call to put it in perspective for me. Also, if the tank is basically completely sealed except for the small gaps for cords (if needed), how audible is it through the glass really?

[ToadPaparazzi]

Is there another thread already on this process? I will certainly do my homework.

Not sure if there is one on this forum.

If not, please share either here or in a PM. I do think 40+ gallons would be way too much. I only need enough for my 10-20 quarantine. I will have time to go and collect for my main tank later. Thanks so much for your willingness to help Paparazzi. Greatly appreciate it!

No secrets to the process

I place DRY leaves on a 3 inch deep aluminum pan and pop it into the oven at 325° for 10 minutes. I don't wash my leaves, not necessary and a very cumbersome process.