Euthinization not working HELP

[mrzoggs]

dude was more of me thinking outloud, i knew someone was going to say that... not hard to tell its a she by her pictures.

im gonna have to stay outta this thread from here on out. sad stuff.

[DC101]

I read through this and i feel so sad. My stomach is churning.

Not the best thing to read when i got my frogs today...

I hope i never have to do what you had to amy but sometimes its better, you know

[flybyferns]

The frog was euthanized first by normal neosporin (the wrong tube was applied) the frog was doing "death rolls" and contorting. My fridnd who is a vet tech rushed over and we both decided that the frog was dying and in alot of pain. The neosporin was an old tube that did not contain any ingridients that would kill the frog. After 30 min my friend looked up the active ingridient used in the new neosporin tubes and realized mine didnt contain it. We used oragel on the frogs pelvic patch and the convulsions and spasms stopped soon after and she died quickly.

Im glad you all care alot about these animals and their well being. The frog wasnt "strong enough to fight the neosporin" he was dying a painful horrible death and i wanted his suffering to stop.

Amy
Oooooooooh ! this is , just , so sad !
I am very, very sorry you have had to go through this!

In hind sight --This terrible ordeal brings up some important things worth intelligent, informed discussion and consideration.

I may be wrong, but I think it's highly unlikely that FF will ever have a "How-To" sheet on euthanization !!!

Knowing how to recognize when euthanization is necessary , be it a free frog from the backyard or a 4000$ dog, should be the very first thing one should think about when deciding to take on the responsibility of pet ownership. Why ? Because it is the only thing that is 100% guaranteed to occur at some point.

Very basic questions need consideration:
Will my frog recover? Is there sever pain or an overwhelming injury causing pain and trauma ( ie a scrape vs the frogs entire abdomen torn open) Will trying to save the frog cause even more suffering? Can the frog eat, and/or digest its food? Will force feeding it cause additional pain or suffering ( ie feeding a frog with 2 broken legs) Very common sense questions!

Any vet - can help during a time like this. So, ALL of us should tuck that 40$ in a little froggy ( piggy bank ) for that inevitable day.

Like children ( yes , like children ) frogs DO NOT come with instructions ! That part is up to us !
And yes , just like children, we can spit them out !!!!! , but unfortunately , very often things do not go so well.

Is is NOT neosporin ( as you know) ---- it is benzocaine which is found in a tooth pain product called Orajel. Knock-off brands should not be used. There is even a home recipe using Ethyl alcohol and another using colve oil. I'm sure anyone can find these instructions by searching the wonderful www. However, the piggy bank method works best!

This is merely my opinion, but, this is really something a vet should do! It is the very most important thing one should do for a suffering pet. They are depending on US for this more than their daily care throughout there entire lives.

Again- Amy- I'm very sorry !

[BlueisallIneed]

Zoggz did you really refer to Blue as "Dude"?? Definitely a she

Lol no worries

[BlueisallIneed]

That is so wrong, I am sorry for the loss of your frog, but I hope you learned from this to let a professional vet do it. Poor thing

[GrifTheGreat]

dude was more of me thinking outloud, i knew someone was going to say that... not hard to tell its a she by her pictures.

im gonna have to stay outta this thread from here on out. sad stuff.

Lol! I was just pointing out the obvious.

[GrifTheGreat]

I'm glad the poor frog's suffering is finally over.

[StickyFrogfeet]

Yeah, I would agree I'd have to take to a vet i wouldnt be able to put my frog down by myself i wouldnt have the strength.I know they are small squishy cute lil critters but i dont think i could handle doing it. sorry you had to go through all that

[UncleChester]

Would folks find this helpful? I could whip one up pretty easily.

Please do, this would be a valuable resource that could save much unnecessary suffering. Something about when this last resort should be taken would probably be a good idea.


Even if the idea of doing it to one of your own pets is awful and you'd rather leave it to a vet, if people know you are a frog lover some time you might be faced with friends calling you when they've found an injured amphibian. Sadly, not everything can be nursed back to health. How many frogs suffer lingering deaths from bad but not instantly fatal lawnmower accidents? Having a 'kill kit' on standby is just a good idea.

[mshine1217]

Amy,

Thank you for letting everyone know about the bigger picture. We are sorry for your loss. I can emphathize with the panic that you were going through at the time.

Yes, instruction on euthanasia would be a welcome addition to the care sheet library. As much as we hate it, death is a part of the cycle and sometimes we need to humanely help our buddies. A care sheet explaining the most humane way to proceed would be appreciated by all.

[Bolisnide]

The frog was euthanized first by normal neosporin (the wrong tube was applied) the frog was doing "death rolls" and contorting. My fridnd who is a vet tech rushed over and we both decided that the frog was dying and in alot of pain. The neosporin was an old tube that did not contain any ingridients that would kill the frog. After 30 min my friend looked up the active ingridient used in the new neosporin tubes and realized mine didnt contain it. We used oragel on the frogs pelvic patch and the convulsions and spasms stopped soon after and she died quickly.

Im glad you all care alot about these animals and their well being. The frog wasnt "strong enough to fight the neosporin" he was dying a painful horrible death and i wanted his suffering to stop.

Amy, I'm so sorry to hear about this! What happened in the last few days since your last post? How is the other frog doing?

[ariesheiress]

Amy, so sorry for your loss. Take care.

[DC101]

Amy, i am so sorry for your loss. Sometimes these thing just happen.

Take care and god bless.

[Kira Hudson]

amy im very sorry for your loss and wish you only the best

[GrifTheGreat]

I sent a PM to Skeletalfrog to see if he'll throw together a sheet for proper humane euthanasia and submit it to John. Hopefully we can get this placed within the Care Article section of the Forum.

Amy I am truly sorry for your loss and all the sadness you must have gone through watching your poor friend suffer.

[SkeletalFrog]

Home Euthanasia of Amphibians


Death is a part of life, and just as an animal owner is responsible for giving their pet a good life, they are similarly responsible for giving it a good death. Fortunately, doing this at home is quite easy with amphibians due to their permeable skins.


Note - This page assumes that you have correctly assessed that your frog or salamander is in significant, incurable pain and/or at risk for imminent death. Please consult a veterinarian on health problems, or, if a vet is not affordable or available, amphibian experts in person or online. You don't want to euthanize a frog that could be healed completely with nothing more than some antibiotics.


I will cover all the methods I've used myself, several I haven't, and some that are not acceptable.


Physical methods:


Freezing - NOT ACCEPTABLE - While cool temperatures do reduce nerve activity, the problem with freezing is that it allows ice crystals to form in the most exposed tissues (toes, fingers, skin) long before the brain has sufficiently cooled, thereby causing pain. It is specifically advised against in the AVMA guidelines on euthanasia.


Pithing - Not suitable for home - Pithing consists of restraining the animal and quickly inserting a needle into the brain via the base of the skull, destroying the brain. If you think this seems like it could easily go wrong, you're correct - pithing should never be done by someone not experienced in it. It is generally only used in scientific settings when the use of chemicals would invalidate the results.


Other - NOT ACCEPTABLE - Assorted other "traumatic" methods have been suggested by well-meaning individuals ranging from smacking the animal against a table to stepping on it to driving over it. Needless to say, none are reliable or acceptable, especially in light of the easy availability of the chemical methods below.


Gaseous methods:


CO2 - NOT ACCEPTABLE - While CO2 gas is widely and correctly used for euthanasia in mammals, the tolerance of amphibians (and other "cold-blooded" species) to low oxygen levels means that it takes far, far too long, and can lead to acidification of the blood.


Ether & Chloroform - DANGEROUS - While technically they may be acceptable, they are not available to the general public for good reason: both are explosive. Additionally, both spontaneously decompose into even more dangerous chemicals (a poison in one case, an even stronger explosive in the other). Ether is found in engine starter fluid, but much of that fluid is simple gasoline and should not be used on amphibians.


Modern Gas Anesthetics - EXCELLENT (VET ONLY) - Various modern gas aneasthetics (such as isoflurane and desflurane) and even obsolete ones (such as halothane) are excellent for amphibian euthanasia, but cannot be acquired by the general public. However, all vets should have at least one on hand, which can be either pumped into an enclosed container as a gas, or applied directly to the frog as a liquid (these anaesthetics are typically stored as liquids and vaporized during use).


Liquid methods:


MS-222 - THE BEST - This is the gold standard of frog euthanasia, and any frog owner should keep some at hand in case of emergency. It is sold in any specialist aquarium store and through many, many websites as "MS-222", "Tricaine S" or "Finquel". Disolve in water, add 1.5x that amount in baking soda (to prevent the solution from becoming acidic), and the frog will slowly go to sleep, then pass away. Exact doses are extremely unpredictable for different species, but since overdose is the goal, 2 teaspoons of MS-222 (with 3 teaspoons of baking soda) in 1 L of water should kill even large frogs with impermeable skin (such as cane toads).


Clove Oil - GOOD - Sold at many specialist fish stores, this is another excellent option. It hasn't been extensively investigated in amphibians, and I haven't used it myself, but reports from other researchers I know suggest it works effectively. The doses for fish will be far below ideal for frogs, and again, since overdose is the goal, just increase it substantially (at least five-fold). If it's not getting it done, add more and wait a bit longer.


Benzocaine - GOOD - Available over the counter as Orajel and other contact anaesthetics, it will rapidly and painlessly euthanize any amphibian. However, you must make sure the active ingredient in Benzocaine, since alternatives will be ineffective at best, hamful at worst.


Metomidate - GOOD - Available as "Aqua-Calm" via specialist fish stores and internet vendors, this works similarly to MS-222 and clove oil. Like Clove oil, dosing is not known, so use more than the recommended amount for fish, and increase it if death has not occured.


Alcohol - NOT ACCEPTABLE - This method has been specifically ruled out by the AVMA. Given the availability of good liquid methods, there's really no reason to use it. Personally, I've seen amphibians produce pain responses upon dermal contact with alcohol, and there's little reason to think this won't happen in a dilute solution.




Assessing death


So you've put your frog or salamander in the MS-222 or other liquid, but how do you know it's dead? It sounds obvious, but is definitely not - as a consequence of their tolerance for low oxygen, tissues can take a long time to die, sometimes hours. The chemicals will help, but when are they done.


As an amphibian succumbs to MS-222 or other methods, it will pass through the following stages, in order:
1) Loss of righting response - the animal cannot right itself if placed on its back, and at advanced stages, may not even attempt to.
2) Loss of buccal pumping - Most amphibians breathe via lungs, which are filled by rythmic motions of the floor of the mouth. This motion will continue for some time, but once it ceases, either the muscles are paralyzed or the base of the brain has been shut down.
3) Loss of eye retraction reflex - A gentle touch or even puff of air to the eye will cause animals to blink and retract the eye. If this reflex is lost, the euthanasia is almost done.
4) Lack of heartbeat - if placed on their back under decent light, you will often be able to see the beat of a frog's heart, located slightly posterior to the forelimbs. The cessation of the heartbeat is the final indicator.


Additionally, in dead frogs, the mouth will often flop open limply, and the tongue will protrude without any muscle tone. If in doubt, leave the frog for longer.


Most importantly, if you aren't 100% comfortable with any of these techniques, please just take the frog to a vet. It's better to spend the time and cash and know that euthanasia is being done right than to take a chance and mess up.

[GrifTheGreat]

Could you submit this information to John Skeletal so he will consider adding it to the Care articles?

[BlueisallIneed]

Home Euthanasia of Amphibians


Death is a part of life, and just as an animal owner is responsible for giving their pet a good life, they are similarly responsible for giving it a good death. Fortunately, doing this at home is quite easy with amphibians due to their permeable skins.


Note - This page assumes that you have correctly assessed that your frog or salamander is in significant, incurable pain and/or at risk for imminent death. Please consult a veterinarian on health problems, or, if a vet is not affordable or available, amphibian experts in person or online. You don't want to euthanize a frog that could be healed completely with nothing more than some antibiotics.


I will cover all the methods I've used myself, several I haven't, and some that are not acceptable.


Physical methods:


Freezing - NOT ACCEPTABLE - While cool temperatures do reduce nerve activity, the problem with freezing is that it allows ice crystals to form in the most exposed tissues (toes, fingers, skin) long before the brain has sufficiently cooled, thereby causing pain. It is specifically advised against in the AVMA guidelines on euthanasia.


Pithing - Not suitable for home - Pithing consists of restraining the animal and quickly inserting a needle into the brain via the base of the skull, destroying the brain. If you think this seems like it could easily go wrong, you're correct - pithing should never be done by someone not experienced in it. It is generally only used in scientific settings when the use of chemicals would invalidate the results.


Other - NOT ACCEPTABLE - Assorted other "traumatic" methods have been suggested by well-meaning individuals ranging from smacking the animal against a table to stepping on it to driving over it. Needless to say, none are reliable or acceptable, especially in light of the easy availability of the chemical methods below.


Gaseous methods:


CO2 - NOT ACCEPTABLE - While CO2 gas is widely and correctly used for euthanasia in mammals, the tolerance of amphibians (and other "cold-blooded" species) to low oxygen levels means that it takes far, far too long, and can lead to acidification of the blood.


Ether & Chloroform - DANGEROUS - While technically they may be acceptable, they are not available to the general public for good reason: both are explosive. Additionally, both spontaneously decompose into even more dangerous chemicals (a poison in one case, an even stronger explosive in the other). Ether is found in engine starter fluid, but much of that fluid is simple gasoline and should not be used on amphibians.


Modern Gas Anesthetics - EXCELLENT (VET ONLY) - Various modern gas aneasthetics (such as isoflurane and desflurane) and even obsolete ones (such as halothane) are excellent for amphibian euthanasia, but cannot be acquired by the general public. However, all vets should have at least one on hand, which can be either pumped into an enclosed container as a gas, or applied directly to the frog as a liquid (these anaesthetics are typically stored as liquids and vaporized during use).


Liquid methods:


MS-222 - THE BEST - This is the gold standard of frog euthanasia, and any frog owner should keep some at hand in case of emergency. It is sold in any specialist aquarium store and through many, many websites as "MS-222", "Tricaine S" or "Finquel". Disolve in water, add 1.5x that amount in baking soda (to prevent the solution from becoming acidic), and the frog will slowly go to sleep, then pass away. Exact doses are extremely unpredictable for different species, but since overdose is the goal, 2 teaspoons of MS-222 (with 3 teaspoons of baking soda) in 1 L of water should kill even large frogs with impermeable skin (such as cane toads).


Clove Oil - GOOD - Sold at many specialist fish stores, this is another excellent option. It hasn't been extensively investigated in amphibians, and I haven't used it myself, but reports from other researchers I know suggest it works effectively. The doses for fish will be far below ideal for frogs, and again, since overdose is the goal, just increase it substantially (at least five-fold). If it's not getting it done, add more and wait a bit longer.


Benzocaine - GOOD - Available over the counter as Orajel and other contact anaesthetics, it will rapidly and painlessly euthanize any amphibian. However, you must make sure the active ingredient in Benzocaine, since alternatives will be ineffective at best, hamful at worst.


Metomidate - GOOD - Available as "Aqua-Calm" via specialist fish stores and internet vendors, this works similarly to MS-222 and clove oil. Like Clove oil, dosing is not known, so use more than the recommended amount for fish, and increase it if death has not occured.


Alcohol - NOT ACCEPTABLE - This method has been specifically ruled out by the AVMA. Given the availability of good liquid methods, there's really no reason to use it. Personally, I've seen amphibians produce pain responses upon dermal contact with alcohol, and there's little reason to think this won't happen in a dilute solution.




Assessing death


So you've put your frog or salamander in the MS-222 or other liquid, but how do you know it's dead? It sounds obvious, but is definitely not - as a consequence of their tolerance for low oxygen, tissues can take a long time to die, sometimes hours. The chemicals will help, but when are they done.


As an amphibian succumbs to MS-222 or other methods, it will pass through the following stages, in order:
1) Loss of righting response - the animal cannot right itself if placed on its back, and at advanced stages, may not even attempt to.
2) Loss of buccal pumping - Most amphibians breathe via lungs, which are filled by rythmic motions of the floor of the mouth. This motion will continue for some time, but once it ceases, either the muscles are paralyzed or the base of the brain has been shut down.
3) Loss of eye retraction reflex - A gentle touch or even puff of air to the eye will cause animals to blink and retract the eye. If this reflex is lost, the euthanasia is almost done.
4) Lack of heartbeat - if placed on their back under decent light, you will often be able to see the beat of a frog's heart, located slightly posterior to the forelimbs. The cessation of the heartbeat is the final indicator.


Additionally, in dead frogs, the mouth will often flop open limply, and the tongue will protrude without any muscle tone. If in doubt, leave the frog for longer.


Most importantly, if you aren't 100% comfortable with any of these techniques, please just take the frog to a vet. It's better to spend the time and cash and know that euthanasia is being done right than to take a chance and mess up.

Please note, a frog or reptiles heart can beat minutes even up to hours after the animal has passed away. This happened with my frog at the vet when he died in my hands. We had him hooked up to a heart monitor. The best way let a vet do it period.

[SkeletalFrog]

Please note, a frog or reptiles heart can beat minutes even up to hours after the animal has passed away. This happened with my frog at the vet when he died in my hands. We had him hooked up to a heart monitor. The best way let a vet do it period.

True, but I always say it's better to wait the extra time to make *sure* the frog is dead.

[Harry]

I think Orajel USED to contain Benzocaine chloride, which is soluble in water. I think it was changed a while back to Benzocaine, which is not very soluble in water.

As a result, the new product would be poorly, very slowly, absorbed through the skin. It is soluble in ethanol, and in acidic solutions. Maybe the polyethylene glycol in the ingredients is to make it water soluble, in which case it would still be effective.

Mixing a bit of ethanol into the orajel would increase absorbtion, but I don't know if ethanol would sting on frog skin.

Euthanasia is awful stuff to think about. I know it is for the best sometimes. But it is very hard to think about it.

H