Toad species/mixing need clarification

[stickytoes]

Hi John,
In the "Toad Basic Care" section, you stated:
"Such a container could comfortably house at least 2 of any US or European species with the exception of..."
I have a Texas toad that I'd like to house with some other toads. From what you've stated, it's alright to mix toad species? If my understanding is correct, which species would you recommend housing with a Texas toad? Thanks.
~Lauren
That is not what my statement means. I do not advise mixing frog and toad species. Aside from the fact that they can give each other any parasites and diseases they are carrying (and most wild toads have parasites), different sized toads can and will eat each other. Also, each species of toad is different in terms of attitude and habit - some are more shy than others and can be easily intimidated and stressed by being forced to live with other species.
So what did you mean by at least 2 toads of American/European species? Does this mean I can only house my Texas toad with other Texas toads? What about another American species? If they're all quarantined and treated prior to being housed together, similar in size, and I keep them well-fed, what issues would I run into? Thanks.
I actually have to go out of town in a minute - please post your questions on the forum, that's why it's there.

So here I am with the same question. Can anyone clarify this for me?

[SludgeMunkey]

American toads are gape-limited opportunistic predators. That is a fancy way of saying they will eat anything they can get in their mouths especially if it is a different species. There are a multitude of reasons why you should not mix species but I feel this is the most important.

[stickytoes]

Yes, I understand that, but that still doesn't address why I couldn't keep a few of the same size together. I used to keep many American toads and I had 3 tanks: babies, young adult, and full-grown and I never encountered any problems. That said, as far as diseases/parasites, if all are treated before being housed together, is there still a risk of trans-species spread of disease? I'm not an inexperienced keeper and know how important it is to keep these guys well-fed so they don't turn on each other. I frequently observe same tank frog interaction. I've never had a problem.

[Kurt]

Hopefully, I can clarify things for you. Only house toads together that are very close in size and are of the same species. Doesn't matter where they came from. Stick to singular species enclosures and keep them similar in size, and you should be ok.

[stickytoes]

John said the same thing, but I'm one of those people who likes to know why. I understand the bit about not wanting to stress the animals by housing them with different species, but I'd like to know more about cross-species disease transfer. Like I said before, if each toad is quarantined and treated before interacting with other toads, is it possible for disease to spread? Also, isn't it possible to see how two species from the same geographical location interact for some time? I keep a close eye on my guys and I make each move very carefully. I haven't had any problems with this in the past and I'm wondering what the big hype is about.

[stickytoes]

Just in case this comes up, I also understand that if I housed 2 similar sized toads together for some time and one grows bigger than the other in the end, they'd need to be housed separately from that point on. So specifically, my question isn't about size (I comprehend that aspect) but about species, similar species even. I just want to know if there's an exception to the "rule," because there usually is.

[SludgeMunkey]

Here is just a few of the plethora of "whys" for you:

Toads are poisonous. While the level of toxicity varies greatly by species, mixing different species of these animals runs the risk of them poisoning each other.

Growth rates vary from animal to animal and species to species. An enclosure that may be suitable in size for a few juveniles of two species will quickly become a buffet for the larger specimens.

Toads are not social animals. Too many in one enclosure with have detrimental health effects in the long term due to crowding stress.

Different environmental requirements. For example: I live in a place where Bufo woodhousii, Bufo cognatus and Bufo americanus all exist in the same biome. Well, if you look at the map you would assume the same biome. Truth be told, the americanus prefer the edges of gallery forests away from the other two species. The cognatus like open grassland areas near river bluffs and generally will not share breeding pools with the other species. The woodhousii prefer various terrains and elevations, but are never found in areas where americanus is.

Hybridization. While it is highly unlikely they would breed at all in captivity without careful environmental manipulation by the keeper, the risk does exist in many captive Bufonidae. Hybridization should be avoided in captivity at all costs in the interest of responsible husbandry.

[Kurt]

Ok. Most amphibians and all Bufonids (true toads) have skin toxins, while at the same time they possess porous skin that absorbs just about everything through it. So if you are keeping two amphibians of different species, you are not only risking cross-infection, but cross-contamination. In other words they would be poisoning each other. You can't quarantine against that.

Now if you have two toads of the same species and one ends up growing significantly larger than the other, then most likely you have a male and female. In most Anuran species the female grows larger than the male.

[SludgeMunkey]

<laughing>
Kurt we posted in stereo. You owe me a Coke...

[stickytoes]

Thank you! Both of you. :-) That's what I needed to know. I considered that, but never knew for sure. It has now been explained to my satisfaction. I'm the one who owes the coke. ;-) Hopefully a simple thank you will do.

[stickytoes]

Maybe I uttered the words "to my satisfaction" too soon. Is it about the amount of toxin/poison or the type? (Consider this a P.S.)

[Kurt]

Both, but mostly the type of toxins involved and the variations of it within the two different species concerned.

[stickytoes]

Has there been any research to determine the similarities of species toxins? Are there any species whose toxins are not harmful to each other?

[stickytoes]

By the way, I'm not trying to find an excuse to house different species together. I'm not acting on any of this. :-P Like I said before, I just like to have a thorough knowledge of why I'm doing what I'm doing.

[Kurt]

Has there been any research to determine the similarities of species toxins? Are there any species whose toxins are not harmful to each other?

I imagine so, but I don't know of any off hand.

Not as far as I know.

[tylototriton]

I'm pretty sure research has been done on the effects of some toad venom in humans. If that interests you then check out Brian Fry's website VenomDoc or just search for some combination of Bufo and LD50. Also, back to like your very first post. The reason John said American/European was because toads from these two areas are usually around the same size, while toads from South America or Africa (B. marinus for example) can be absolutely massive.

Best,
Alex

[stickytoes]

Thanks guys. I guess I've come to the end of it, but I appreciate your knowledge and input on the subject.

[Kurt]

You're welcome.