Leaf Litter

[pinkcloud]

has anyone used leaf litter on top of coco fiber in a pacman enclosure ? if so how did it work out? can leaves cause impaction ?

i've read that in the wild pacmans stay buried in leaves until ready to ambush prey and i want to try and replicate its natural habitat ..... if my knowledge is correct

[Yusil]

Well, I don't have a Pacman, but I think generally Frogs & Toads are quite fond, if not tolerant, of leaves and it provides them with a sense of security if they feel scared or just want a place to sleep privately.

When you say impaction, you mean incase he digests it? My frogs always take a chomp out of a leaf if the pursuit of a roach, but they usually spit the leaf matter out and somehow keep the roach in... But I think it could be harmful if he ate the whole thing, because to my knowledge, most frogs only eat and digest living matter, although the Giant Marine Toad[Cane Toad/Bufo Marinus] is an exception, eating dead & plant matter as well as numerous other things.

Someone with extensive knowledge and experience with these frogs would know better, but I don't think he'd go after it on purpose and digest it.

[GrifTheGreat]

I have not personally used it. I find that coco fiber works great and all my Pacs seem to love it! I have heard of people using leaf litter for pacs, but I haven't heard too much about long term usuage/effects of it. I have also read that they bury in it in the wild. There is very little scientific research regarding horned frogs in their natural habitat though. Most of what we know is found out through trial and error of pet keepers. I have read about leaf litter used for other types of frogs. As far as that goes, I beleive Magnolia or Oak leaves are popular. They can be purchased or collected. If collected, it is very important to make sure that no chemicals have been sprayed on or near the tree. Any collected leaves should be boiled for about 15 minutes to help prevent the spread of parasites and fungal infections. After boiling, the leaves should be dried before placing them in the enclosure. They should be crisp and “brittle.” You can speed up the drying process by putting them in an oven on a baking tray to dry them - temperature about 120 °C / 250°F. Takes about half an hour to an hour, depending on how many leaves you try to dry at once. Other leaves, such as Maple, may be used, but they are not as robust and will rot away sooner. Although

However, I would still be very cautious about using leaf litter. It is easier for them to digest than say sphagnum moss so there is a lower chance of impaction, but there is still some risk. It does not pass through as easily as coco fiber. The leaves should definitely be dried out; their bodies are not really equiped to digest green (as in fresh) leaves. I would be interested to hear experiences from someone who has used leaf litter for Pacmans long term. Hopefully someone will chime in. But personally, I stick with coco fiber since it is tried and true! :-)

[GrifTheGreat]

When you say impaction, you mean incase he digests it? My frogs always take a chomp out of a leaf if the pursuit of a roach, but they usually spit the leaf matter out and somehow keep the roach in... But I think it could be harmful if he ate the whole thing, because to my knowledge, most frogs only eat and digest living matter.

Pacmans do often get foreign matter into their mouths when they lunge at food. They usually get a bite out of whatever is around the prey as well as the prey itself. Or sometimes they miss and just get dirt. They will try to wipe at the food while ingesting it, but most of whatever goes into their mouth gets swallowed. This is the reason that feeding on moss is so dangerous. They don't intentionally eat dirt or leaves or moss; it is more of a side effect of the way they hunt. Also, I'm fairly sure that Pacmans cannot spit or do any action like that. When they have something in their mouths that they don't like, they will open their mouths and wipe to see if it will fall out. But the majority of the time, whatever goes in the mouth is going to get swallowed.

[pinkcloud]

thanks everyone for the info i order my leaves from joshsfrogs ..... i order a bag of each leaf they carry ..... but i do plan on having eco earth underneath

[ramp]

I've used leaflitter in the past with snakes and Megophrys frogs with good succes. For sterilising I boil the leafs for 30 minutes. The rest is like Grif described. I only use oak leafs, preferably collected in the fall. I read somewhere that Magnolia could be toxic but can't find the sourse at the moment. An alternative to collected leaflitter are Catalpa leafs. These are sold at pet & fish stores for raising softwater shrimp. a bit expensive but worth it. Catalpa is a native tree to the rainforrest of South America and one of the main food of Iguana iguana, aka the green iguana. This is also one of the main food items given to iguana's on the farms where they are raised commercialy. I'm sure they would be perfect. I'm expecting some large import cornuta's from Surinam in a few weeks and am going to put them on these leafs so they can settle in. I will keep you posted. In the mean time take a look at this clip of C. cornuta in nature.

[Yusil]

Pacmans do often get foreign matter into their mouths when they lunge at food. They usually get a bite out of whatever is around the prey as well as the prey itself. Or sometimes they miss and just get dirt. They will try to wipe at the food while ingesting it, but most of whatever goes into their mouth gets swallowed. This is the reason that feeding on moss is so dangerous. They don't intentionally eat dirt or leaves or moss; it is more of a side effect of the way they hunt. Also, I'm fairly sure that Pacmans cannot spit or do any action like that. When they have something in their mouths that they don't like, they will open their mouths and wipe to see if it will fall out. But the majority of the time, whatever goes in the mouth is going to get swallowed.

Well, mines don't actually "spit" the foreign matter out, but it more or less just falls out. They usually grab their food with their hands, but in the event they just jump and eat it, additional things get in and they just open their mouths and whatever it is falls out, coated in slime, which I'm guessing is stomach acid.

I didn't realize all frogs didn't do this. We only have 2 types of Anura here so, but that sounds unlucky for a hungry pacman.

[GrifTheGreat]

Well, mines don't actually "spit" the foreign matter out, but it more or less just falls out. They usually grab their food with their hands, but in the event they just jump and eat it, additional things get in and they just open their mouths and whatever it is falls out, coated in slime, which I'm guessing is stomach acid.

I didn't realize all frogs didn't do this. We only have 2 types of Anura here so, but that sounds unlucky for a hungry pacman.

It's their voracious appetite that can be their downfall. You see when it comes to food they will inevitably eat some substrate. The only real way the get the soil out of their mouth is by shoving it out with their tongue and then wiping at it to try and remove it. They cannot and do not do this with food in their mouth. Once the food item is in their mouth whatever is in with it will be swallowed. They wipe at their mouth while prey is in there to force it to the center of the mouth for easier swallowing. The wiping may remove some soil, but I can assure you that what goes in with food is swallowed not removed or dropped. Sometimes pieces may fall out, but the majority goes down with the prey. This is why bark like Cyprus bedding and sphagnum/ wood chip bedding are not to be used. Rocks as well. The WILL accidentally eat it and die.

Common sends and playing it safe is the best way to care for your Pacman. Ask questions and research. :-)

[pac]

yea i know a guy on a different forum made a all natural tank with leaf litter coco husk he made it for a pair of cranwellis he said it was alot care