Another "my Pacman won't eat" thread

[newtype311]

Hey guys,

Im new to the forums, but I've been reading up on everything over the last week. I've tried a few things I've seen in other threads, and in the Care Sheet, but I haven't really made much progress.

First off, let me begin by posting my setup info:

1. Size of enclosure – 10 Gallons
2. # of inhabitants – 1 Just the PacMan
3. Humidity - 75–80% some times drops to 60 though.
4. Temperature – Cool side:78-80 / Warm side: 82-85
5. Water - Dechlorinated Tap / heated for baths
6. Materials used for substrate – Eco Earth
7a. Enclosure Setup - 4–5" of Eco Earth with 2 small fake plants and 2 live plants in the corners.
7b. How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv – He was in a very small Tupperware container when I bought him from a dealer
8. Main food source – Initially Large Crickets (ate 2)
9. Vitamins and calcium? - I have a nutrient and calcium mix
10. Lighting – Natural Ambient light from the window across the room combined with a 29w bulb to regulate temp on the warm side
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure – I have a UTH on one side of the tank, a 29w bulb for extra heat during the daylight hours, and a Damp towel covering 2/3 of the tank lid to regulate the Humidity and keep in heat.
12. When is the last time he/she ate – I can confirm that he ate 1 cricket on day 1, and maybe another on day 2. Then nothing.
13. Have you found poop lately – Last night he left a weird double lump thing in that looked milky in color in the bath.
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure – See the end of the post for images.
15. How old is the frog – Baby <2.5"
16. How long have you owned him/her – 10 days
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred - Captive
18. Frog food – None, so far just the night crawlers and crickets.
19. How often the frog is handled – 3 quick times: once to put him on the warm side, twice to put him in the water dish for a warm soak. All for less than 20 seconds each time.
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area – Relatively low, just my wife and I in the bedroom, he's on a high shelf out of the way for the most part.
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) - I change the water daily and mist several times a day. Haven't had him long enough to clean the tank yet

The first 2 days I had him, things seemed pretty normal; he found a spot in the center of the tank he liked, dug a hole, and sat there. I put 2 crickets in the first night and the next morning one was gone so I assumed he ate it. A few days later I noticed that he wasn't eating any of the crickets I was adding, he also developed a heavy breathing pattern which is what really caught my attentions.

Previously his breathing was barely audible, you had to look right at his throat to see movement, but now his whole head bobs ever 5 seconds or so as he breathes.

He hasn't eaten since Sunday of last week so I'm really getting concerned. I've tried smaller crickets, I've dangled both sizes in front of him, and I've tried halved nightcrawlers, leaving everything in the tank over night. but so far no progress.

The nightcrawlers showed a slight bit of hope at first, he opened his mouth twice but didn't actually bite. I did get him to bit one once and I immediately let go of it, but all he did was spit it out after a few minutes.

Don't know if its important but he's shed twice in the last few days so far.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!


This how I got him from the reptile store, a very small container.


I forgot to add earlier that his name is Odo (from Star Trek DS9).


Soaking in his bath today, he's starting to look thin to me.


Here's the tank setup (you'll have to excuse the glare) 3 sides of the tank are covered (2 by imagery and 1 by the heating pad). you can also see that I have a few crickets that tend to sit still against the other side of the tank.

[EricIvins]

You'll find those "small" containers to work a whole lot better than a 10 gallon tank.......These animals are ambush hunters, so a small Frog in a large tank with a few crickets isn't going to work.......They have to be trained or really well established for a setup like that........

I keep all my Ceratophrys aquatic - It's convenient and works.......One of the few things I learned early on and still practice.......You just acquired this animal, and put it in a setup that it will more than likely not thrive in, so I would back track........Put the animal back in that small container, put just enough water to cover the bottom, put it in a dark place, then feed untill the animal is established in your care.........

[GrifTheGreat]

If the frog is stressed then placing if in just water may make it feel exposed and cause more stress. If your frog hasn't eaten for 8 to 10 days you may have to force feed. Placing the frog in a smaller container is a good idea. be sure to cover 3 sides of the container with some sort of background so it feels secure and has less distractions to see from inside the tank. Placing it in a dark room with no light can mess up the day night cycle which they need. You may have to place the light in the center of the enclosure to warm the ambient air itself.

Break the hind legs off the crickets to make them easier for the frog to catch. This is an Albino Pacman and basking lights can damage their eyes and skin. you can only use Infrared bulbs with the frogs.

Keep us posted.

[newtype311]

Thanks for the quick reply Eric,

I moved him to a small critter carrier that I bought earlier today (9'x6') with a half of a nightcrawler. I covered it with a towel and placed it against the side of the tank to pick up a bit of ambient heat.

Does that sound like an ok setup to get him healthy again?

[newtype311]

On the bottom of the carrier I placed about a 1/4 inch of water soaked eco earth. the back is against the tank's UTH which is a "tropical" Exo Terra heater that doesn't produce much heat at all.

Initially I used a 50w basking light, but switched to the 29w bulb which is a regular halogen light for general home use since it gives off way less heat and softer light.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks for the quick reply Eric,

I moved him to a small critter carrier that I bought earlier today (9'x6') with a half of a nightcrawler. I covered it with a towel and placed it against the side of the tank to pick up a bit of ambient heat.

Does that sound like an ok setup to get him healthy again.

If the sound is a popping noise then its just one of the vocalizations that these frogs make. They do Bob there head when the produce this sound You can actually place the critter keeper inside the 10 gallon tank to keep him warm and help maintain humidity levels.

Did you prepare his substrate with de-chlorinated water?

Do you use de-chlorinated water for your frogs water dish and when you bathe him?

Buy some unflavored clear Pedialyte. It must be unflavored. Mix a 10 to 1 ratio or warm de-chlorinated water and the unflavored Pedialyte. For every 10 ounces of de-chlorinated add 1 ounce of Pedialyte. The water should be no deeper than up to his chin and he should soak for 15 to 20 minutes. Try and keep him warm during this.

Keep us posted.

[newtype311]

I used de-chlorinated water for both the substrate and the water dish (as well as for misting the tank a couple of times per day).

I haven't heard any actual noise from him when he makes the head bobbing, but if it seems like normal behavior then I'll just let it be for now.

I've got him covered up for now, since its around the time I would be turning out the lights in his tank. I interacted with him a lot tonight trying to get him to eat so I kinda want to leave him be for the night at this point. I'm planning to pick up the Pedialyte on my way home from work tomorrow and I'll give him the soak then.

Also, Thanks so much for all the advice! I drove out to the reptile shop and 2 other pet stores, but no one seemed too concerned, so I was beginning to loose hope.

Thanks again guys!

[DVirginiana]

I drove out to the reptile shop and 2 other pet stores, but no one seemed too concerned, so I was beginning to loose hope.

If the petstores near you are anything like the ones near where I live, I think the building could be on fire and none of the employees would seem too concerned...

Good luck getting him to eat!

[newtype311]

Ok so I decided to force feed him 2 crickets. It was a pretty long process to get his mouth open, but I was able to get one small and then one medium cricket in there.

Its not something I really wanted to do, but after not eating for almost 7 days I was really getting nervous. compared to most images of pacmans on this site, he was pretty much skin and bones.

I watched him for a while to make sure he swallowed them, so all I can do now is wait and see if he pulls through.

[newtype311]

Well... He didn't.

Don't know what else I could have done at this point. I read 6 different care sheets before buying him (including the one here) and thought I had a good setup for him. pretty much everyone of them said to put them in a 10 gallon tank.

I mean, had I known that he should have been left in a small enclosure I of course would have done that immediately. Guess I could have posted sooner, but after reading through some threads it seemed like not eating after a move was pretty common place while they adjusted.

Looking back now, perhaps he was always thin, especially when compared to other baby pictures online. I just assumed he would fatten up after a couple days of eating well.

Regardless, I'm really sorry things turned out like this. Thank you all very much for your concern and assistance in this.

[Yoci]

Oh I'm sorry.. I see your in Fullerton, I'm in the Anaheim/buena park area. If you need more help just pm me.

[GrifTheGreat]

I am so sorry for your loss! RIP Odo. Pacmans are often not as easy to care for as advertised. They get stressed easily which usually causes them to stop eating. It is hard with a new frog, particularly one from a chain store, because you don't know the frog's history. You have no idea if it has any health issues or even when the last time it ate before it came into your care. Sometimes they don't pull through depsite our best efforts. You did your research and did your best to save him. Most likely he had underlying health problems before you got him. Again, I am so sorry for your loss.

[newtype311]

Thanks again for all the help and warm wishes.

I guess the thing that upsets me is that I specifically waited several weeks for my local reptile store to get an albino in stock rather than buying one from petsmart for that reason. He never had that plump look that alot of them have, while ironically the one at my local petsmart looked pretty healthy (at least to my laymen eyes).

I'm going to contact the reptile store owner today and see what he has to say. not really looking for a refund or anything, just looking for some sort of response since he didn't seem to think it was any sort of issue yesterday.

I think going forward im going to look for a local breeder in the SoCal area so I can make sure the frog is well adjusted and healthy before it comes into my care.

if you guys can recommend anyone on the boards, by all means let me know.

Thanks again!

[pinkcloud]

ya it sounds like u did everything right and all that u could 4 it ..... maybe it was sick when u got it

[IvoryReptiles]

I am guessing that the frog was already stressed & ill at the time of purchase. Everything that you did was spot on. Sometimes (and I know this is not going to be a popular statement) you can actually get a healthy frog from Petsmart or Petco. It just takes some attention to the signs of health to pick one. If the frog's head is larger than it's body mass......move along. Make sure it is active & eyes are clear. Also make sure it is not bloated.....it will look like a water balloon that has been over-filled.

When you wiggle a bit of worm in front of it and it opens it's mouth but doesn't bite down, push the worm into it's mouth a bit. Some of mine are very lazy and have learned that I will all but chew for them....LOL
If the frog spits the worm out, try a different piece of worm. Some of our frogs refuse to eat the "Head" of the earthworms, they prefer the tail ends. I am convinced that the slime they ooze has a bad taste to it to some of the frogs and that is what makes them reject it.

Sorry for the loss, I hope you have much better luck!!

[newtype311]

Thanks for the tips on picking a healthy frog. Mine's head was definitely bigger than his body when I got him, I just thought he would thinken out after a couple of feedings.

I contacted Mike from Mike's Phat Frogs and Im going to be picking up one of His Lime Albinos this weekend. So Im really looking forward to that.

Im planning on setting up my critter carrier with some moist eco earth, a wrap around background, and a small water dish. I was also going to place it up against my 10 gallon tank's UTH (Tropical model, doesn't produce much heat) to regulate temperature.

Still have a plentiful supply of crickets and nightcrawlers at home too.

Is there any advice you guys could offer as to how long I should keep it in the carrier, or should I plan on buying incrementally larger carriers until its big enough to have to go in the 10 gallon. The book im reading now says around 3 inches, but theres so much information out there that tends to vary, I just wanted to get your opinions.

Thanks

[Yoci]

Nice.. All my pacs came from Mike.. I'm picking up another pac later this evening..

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks for the tips on picking a healthy frog. Mine's head was definitely bigger than his body when I got him, I just thought he would thinken out after a couple of feedings.

I contacted Mike from Mike's Phat Frogs and Im going to be picking up one of His Lime Albinos this weekend. So Im really looking forward to that.

Im planning on setting up my critter carrier with some moist eco earth, a wrap around background, and a small water dish. I was also going to place it up against my 10 gallon tank's UTH (Tropical model, doesn't produce much heat) to regulate temperature.

Still have a plentiful supply of crickets and nightcrawlers at home too

Is there any advice you guys could offer as to how long I should keep it in the carrier, or should I plan on buying incrementally larger carriers until its big enough to have to go in the 10 gallon. The book im reading now says around 3 inches, but theres so much information out there that tends to vary, I just wanted to get your opinions.

Thanks

You don't have to buy every size keeper. You can actually keep babies happily in the next to largest sized keeper. You can buy the Hermit Crab UTH and place it on the back of the keeper. This way the enclosure is not to large and just large enough to allow your baby Pac to grow before needing to be relocated to a larger home. I currently have 2 babies in this size keeper and they both are doing quite well. Only place an inch or an inch and a quarter of substrate in there so the frog can cover itself, but not so deep that you can't find him/her.

Good luck I hope thing go much smoother this time.