Pac turned Whites turned Pac again?

[InfinitysDaughter]

When I got my whites I had ended up trading a Pac Man for her because I, apparently, couldn't give him the home he wanted.

ANYWAY! :3 I changed around Azy's (my whites) tank last night to, yaknow, mix things up just a little and because I was worried she was maybe getting too hot when she slept. She hates light. Loathes it, actually. She sleeps on the floor of her tank under a half hollow log. The problem I've noticed is the hollow log was placed directly over the heat pad and every time I did a poo sweep I noticed how much hotter, not just warm but hot, the dirt was in that corner then it was anywhere else. So I thought I'd give her some options. I put the log more over a cool area and also put a peice of dirft wood leaned up so she could still sleep on the warmer part of the tank if thats what she wanted, just wanted to give her the option yaknow?

So this morning I checked on her and at first I couldn't find her. Then I found her. Buried. Like my old Pac Man use to do, deep in the soil with only her eyes and nose sticking out. Normal for Pac Mans, not so much for a Whites Tree frog.

Should I be worried? Did I screw up when I changed things around? She buried herself on the cooler side of the sleeper area so I dont think its her way of trying to get warm. And shes never buried herself before and if she was cold wouldn't she just go back to the old spot?

Tank temps are low 70's at night and high 70's low 80s during the day. Humidity between 70 and 90%. Eco Earth substraight. Drift wood and a large leaf real plant for decor. Average handling once a day for a short time while I do poo checks (she usually sits on my shoulder). Last ate yesterday. Was alone all weekend (camping with the family) though I checked in Saturday night after work cuse 3 days is too long to not change water and get fed.

Am I over reacting? Again?

[ViperJr]

An arboreal frog digging in deep in the substrate is usually a warning signal. I've heard people especially having this problem when the humidity is messed up (often to low levels). Could also be because it's too hot, since the digging occurred at the colder side and it's likely that it's cooler at the floor than the top (if you have a light on the top).
Could also be that the frog is just adjusting to the new environment, since you did stir a few things up, so monitor it and give it a day or two, see if it climbs up from that fox hole.

Also:

Average handling once a day for a short time while I do poo checks (she usually sits on my shoulder)

This is also a habit that you might want to reconsider. It's never good for the frog. Best case scenario (although stress is very hard to not cause), nothing happens. Worst case, everything else happens.

[Bolisnide]

Have you calibrated your hygrometers? I'll try and find the thread here and post it...
I also had this problem when I first adopted my white's, and though my hygrometer was stating 70% humidity, after calibration, it was actually 20%!
After I fixed the problem, my white's is never on the ground except when hunting or soaking.

[Bolisnide]

http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...varia-use.html

Here's the link on calibration.

[InfinitysDaughter]

I was always told that whites are actually the one kind of tree frog that is ok with handling. They aren't as susceptible to the oils in our skin as the others are. As for her being stressed by being held, she dosn't assume a stressed position, usually crawls around my shoulders then settles somewhere (shoulder, head, chest. she likes to "nest" in my hair but I cut it short a few weeks ago so shes a bit perturbed by that XD). I take her out and put her on my shoulder so I can do a good poop check by taking everything out and sifting threw the dirt. She buries it for some odd reason. o-0 I dont like it sitting there in case it could make her sick.

No light on top. I talked to one of my bosses who has a Whites and I've read here from someone with an orange name (have no idea @.@) that lights are not as serious a need for Whites because they are nocturnal. I use UTH's for temp control and a desk light to simulate daylight. If it seems to be getting too cool up top then I put another heater on the side near the top. Had her since January with no problems.

I've seen that thread before, Bolisnide, and I wondered if my meter was set right but then I lost the thread and never got around to making sure it was right. Thanks for the link! I'll actually take it out tonight and do that overnight tonight. ^w^

At night Azy is almost never on the ground. She has a favorite place to sit where she can look out at her "kingdom" (my dirty room XD) and watch TV and she is there all night unless the lights come back on. But during the day shes always hold up under her log. Always seemed odd to me, though. She is a tree frog after all. o-0

[InfinitysDaughter]

Well last night I had to coax Azy out of hiding but once she was out she seemed just fine. No lethargy or anything. Just really really dirty. @.@ Actually, she scared the **** out of me as I was drifting off to sleep she jumped from her branch to the door of her tank and made a loud THUD. She, apparently, not only likes graphic horror movies but she also likes cooking shows........this scares me...... I really think I should get a lock for her tank. O.O

ANYWAY! Calibrating my hygrometer and its been in a baggy for about 2 hours, maybe more (i forgot to do it last night @.@), and it says 90% but I dont know exactly what the temp in my room is. The air is on so it could be around 55 or 60 or so? So would that mean its about 20% off?

[Bolisnide]

Well last night I had to coax Azy out of hiding but once she was out she seemed just fine. No lethargy or anything. Just really really dirty. @.@ Actually, she scared the **** out of me as I was drifting off to sleep she jumped from her branch to the door of her tank and made a loud THUD. She, apparently, not only likes graphic horror movies but she also likes cooking shows........this scares me...... I really think I should get a lock for her tank. O.O

ANYWAY! Calibrating my hygrometer and its been in a baggy for about 2 hours, maybe more (i forgot to do it last night @.@), and it says 90% but I dont know exactly what the temp in my room is. The air is on so it could be around 55 or 60 or so? So would that mean its about 20% off?

Hi there,
Your hygrometer is off, you will need to adjust it to read 75%. I can't really imagine your room is 55 or 60 degrees, that's pretty uncomfortable. It could be about 65 degrees? At any rate, I'm sure it doesn't effect the calibration too much.
So in conclusion, your humidity readings have been off; after you adjust your hygrometer you may see that the enclosure has been a bit dry... which would explain Azy's desire to be low. Usually white's sleep up top. Do you have hiding spots (like plants) around your climbing pieces? That would help her feel more secure.

And just to reiterate martin's comment on handling, you may want to reconsider this ritual. She really doesn't like to be handled, even if you think she does. This much handling can cause stress which you know is not good for her health.
And, frogs do not like to watch tv.... she is a frog, not a person. she would probably prefer complete darkness and quiet at night.
Just some food for thought....

Best wishes,
Lindsey

[InfinitysDaughter]

Great! I've been drying my poor baby out for months. D; I fixed it and put it back and I'll see where it settles at. I wish I could afford an automatic mister but there really expensive (at least for me) so the best I can do is spray it quite a bit throughout the day. :/

I run really warm, specially during the summer. One side of the room is much cooler then the other since its an attic room with a window unit AC and the meter was sitting on the desk on the cooler side of the room (my babies are on the warmer side and I have been very closely watching to make sure there temps dont drop because of the air).

I have one live plant, a broad leaf thing (similar to a pathos but it had a different name, light green with white veins?) that I thought would grow up and give her more cover but I think its hit its peak growth. I've been looking around for something vine-y that I can plant in there (I prefer live to fake and my choice of fake isn't that large anyway) but the places around here dont have anything that I've heard is safe for her and I havn't been able to make the trip to the specialty nursery.

What would you suggest I do with her while I do poo checks? I have to basically take everything but her plant out to find it all since she buries it (again, odd much? o0) so I cant just leave her in there. And I dont like leaving her rather large packages in there for more then a day because of bacterial growth. I do understand what you guys are saying and any other species I would agree fully (Percy is almost never handled because greens are so susceptible to hand oils and I can see clear signs of stress when he is handled) but I know that whites are not as susceptible to hand oils as other tree frogs, every single bit of research I've done on them has stated this, and I know the signs of stress and she shows none. I dont hold her for an hour or anything. Its 5-10 minutes tops while I do the checks, clean her water, and then put her back. Sometimes (and this is RARE. as in, I havn't done it for over a month) I let her lay on me for longer but I try to limit skin contact and usually we both fall asleep. I know what a calm position is and what an alert/stress position is for frogs and Azy in particular. I've had her for a while and can tell when she does and does not want to be held.

I'm sorry if I sound combative. I dont mean to be. I just believe I do know what I'm doing. Azy is my first whites but not my first tree frog and I'd been wanting a whites since I found my first (for all intensive purposes first. the frogs in jr high-high school were a surprise and not researched, thus not properly taken care of) frog last summer and have been reading about them and I havn't stopped my education now that I have her. I thank you so very VERY much for your concern, though. Both of you. It means a lot, actually, to know that you care enough to be concerned about a creature you've never seen. I really do mean it.

And the TV thing, its just a joke. A running gag. I guess it didn't come off like that. Sorry. ^^; More then likely, the ground meat may have looked like worms to her and thats why she jumped like she did. I'd like to maybe change up her diet to include red wigglers or the like but I've been told they need to be kept in the fridge and, well, I've been threatened with eviction if my parents find worms in the fridge. I like my free rent to much to risk it. >w> And the TV is usually turned down low and the direct box turns off after a few hours and the tv only gives off a soft blue light. I cant figure out how to make that turn off too, though, but it dosn't seem to bother her. Its bright lights directly on her tank she dosn't like.

[InfinitysDaughter]

Blarg. Forgot. >w<

Shes back in her sleep hole but is no longer buried. I think the problem might have been that she went to the cool side, directly under her log, and it was too cold so she tried to get warmer. Shes found a spot about half way on and off the hot spot and is sleeping peacefully.

One last thing. I have a mold problem with her favorite log and a friend told me to try a vinegar (instead of bleach) solution to clean it and the rest of her tank to kill any remaining spores. I want her tank to be completely clear of vinegar before I put her back so I want to let it sit for a day or so, periodically spraying and wiping down with declorinated water. Would a large critter keeper be ok to keep her in for a day or so? Its about a foot long, 4-5 inches wide, and 7-8 inches tall. Would this be ok for a day, maybe 2? And would this maybe be a good alternative to keep her in during poo checks or is it just too small?

[flybyferns]

Just wondering.
I don't think I missed this information--- But, what size enclosure is this?
What is the ambient temp of the room the enclosure is in?

" I think the problem might have been that she went to the cool side, directly under her log, and it was too cold so she tried to get warmer "
I think I would have to agree with this.

It is a painstaking task to try to figure these things out !

[InfinitysDaughter]

The tanks a 12x12x18 and I have really no idea what the room temp is. I keep it cool because I personally run warm so it can be between 60 and 70, if its hotter outside I'll turn the air up even more. But I keep a close eye on the enclosure temps and I have several thermometers in each frogs tank because I'm awfully anal about there temps.


Also, shes again hunkered down even though the lights are out which is just not normal for her. Shes not buried like before but shes staying under the log which is not normal. She usually comes right out once it gets dark. I think I oops by changing things like I did. When I do the full tank cleaning I'm gonna move things back to where they where.

[TheGrayLady]

Wouldn't suddenly changing it back stress her more? Posing a serious question I'm new to frogs so I'm curious?

[InfinitysDaughter]

I dont really know. I've never had a frog that got stressed when I changed things. My gray and green always seemed happy when I changed things. It was like they had new things to explore.

The tank does need a serious cleaning (there is a serious mold problem) but maybe I'll put it back as it is now but move the background from the back to the side. Maybe she just feels too exposed now...