Whites Tree Frog --- My frog has a hernia?!

[FrogInMyShoe]

Ok. I got this Whites Tree Frog about 6 months ago. Named her Atlas (Thought she was a male at first). She was a rescue; apparently someone dropped her off outside a Petsmart in the middle of winter some time in the night. My girlfriend saw her and immediately liked her. She was nice and fat, but had this weird bump on her back. Took her to the vet about a month and a half ago and had her treated preventively for bacterial infection and parasites (gentromicin and panacur respectively). The vet was unable to tell me exactly what kind of bacteria she had without swabbing her skin and doing a lab test on it which would have cost me more than I can afford. So we put her on a round of gentromicin and she seemed to improve... I also asked the vet about this bump on her back and after a bit of poking, the vet declared that it felt like a hernia, and that the frog's internal organs were actually falling out a tiny bit. She said the frog didn't seem to be in any pain and to watch it because she may need corrective surgery. Again that was about a month a a half ago.

Two days ago the lump on her back turned white, and I am wondering if this is actually a hernia or if maybe she has a really bad bacterial infection that the gentromicin was not designed to treat. I really don't want her to suffer if I can avoid it.

I have kind of lost respect for my vet because they have not returned my calls for over a week regarding a different matter and for reasons I won't go into, I don't think that my vet is as knowledgeable with herps as she claims to be.


Any help or advice anyone could give me on this one would be much appreciated. Listed below is the pertinent data about the frog and the tank:

Enclosure: Exo Terra 18"x18"x18"
Humidity: 50-70% (I have a spray bottle with distilled water that I mist her with every morning, but I suspect she doesn't need this at all. She does seem to enjoy the mist though, which was surprising; any frog I've ever had before used to get grouchy with me when I misted them.)
Lighting: 60w neodymium day bulb, no extra heat at night (I live in Southern California and the natural temperature and humidity have been absolutely perfect for her lately)
Temperature (Fahrenheit): Day- 72 on bottom of tank, 82 on top
Night- 70 on bottom, 74 on top
Water: I use either distilled water or treated tap water (I use ZooMed Reptisafe water conditioner if I do that but usually it's distilled water). I actually built in a 6" deep water pond in her tank that is equipped with a filter to keep the water safe, so she can fully submerge if she wanted to.
Food: Small Superworms... trying to switch to dubia roaches soon. I have also started feeding her less each feeding, but I feed her every day. My thought here was that if she does have a tear in the muscle lining of her body, it would be better if huge amounts of food weren't surging through her body all at once.
Handling: About once every three weeks.
Cleaning: Cage spot cleaned daily, substrate is fiber carpet, cleaned every two weeks.
Supplementation: She was getting a multivitamin 2x a week, calciumw/ D3 2x a week.... This has changed in the last few days to calcium almost every day, multivitamins 2x a week to try to boost her calcium levels and make sure she is healthy enough to fight off any possible infections/diseases.....
Community: There are no other frogs/animals in the tank with the frog

Let me know if I left anything out. I just want my little friend to get better or leave this life as peacefully and pain free as possible if that can't be done. Thank you for your help, everyone. By the way, if anyone has a good vet in the LA County area, please let me know about it! Thanks again!

[Bolisnide]

Yes, that definitely looks like an absess (sp?) caused by an infection, possible puncture wound. You say she's had this bump for six months but it is just now looking like this? I suppose a puncture that never really healed could do this.
If this were my frog I would do the following:
1. discontinue the distilled altogether. Some use for misting, but it is not wise for it to be misted on the frog. distilled leaches valuable minerals from the frogs body.
2. dilute a solution of hydrogen peroxide with treated tap water, maybe 1 TBS per 4 oz water
3. using a q-tip, dab the affected area with the hydrogen peroxide solution, then using a clean q-tip, rinse with plain treated water
4. apply neosprin with a clean q-tip ***DO NOT USE NEOSPORIN WITH PAIN RELIEVER AS THIS WILL EUTHANIZE YOUR FROG***
5. discontinue the super worms, the exo skeleton could cause a hernia or impaction (but this looks like an infection). switch to red wigglers or earth worms cut to an appropriate size. Or crickets if the worms are not available

Again, this is if she were my frog, I am not a vet.
Have you continued with the prescribed medication until it was finished? I would assume this is very important.
Good luck, I hope she gets better

[FrogInMyShoe]

Yes, that definitely looks like an absess (sp?) caused by an infection, possible puncture wound. You say she's had this bump for six months but it is just now looking like this? I suppose a puncture that never really healed could do this.
If this were my frog I would do the following:
1. discontinue the distilled altogether. Some use for misting, but it is not wise for it to be misted on the frog. distilled leaches valuable minerals from the frogs body.
2. dilute a solution of hydrogen peroxide with treated tap water, maybe 1 TBS per 4 oz water
3. using a q-tip, dab the affected area with the hydrogen peroxide solution, then using a clean q-tip, rinse with plain treated water
4. apply neosprin with a clean q-tip ***DO NOT USE NEOSPORIN WITH PAIN RELIEVER AS THIS WILL EUTHANIZE YOUR FROG***
5. discontinue the super worms, the exo skeleton could cause a hernia or impaction (but this looks like an infection). switch to red wigglers or earth worms cut to an appropriate size. Or crickets if the worms are not available

Again, this is if she were my frog, I am not a vet.
Have you continued with the prescribed medication until it was finished? I would assume this is very important.
Good luck, I hope she gets better

Thanks so much for the advice. I will definitely try out the hydrogen peroxide treatment, and I will use treated water for her from now on as opposed to the distilled. Glad that I am not crazy but mad that the damn vet gave me such a horribly incorrect diagnosis of the situation that I let it get this bad. Does anyone know the laws about practicing veterinarians? Do they have to hold some kind of certification to legally/ethically treat herps? Is there any way of knowing if they're worth their salt before I let them anywhere near my animals?

[Bolisnide]

I would google your area for herp vets, surely in LA I would think there were at least one!
As far as laws and regulation on practicing vets, I would google that too! Especially if your really that dis-satisfied.

Forgot to mention, that the vit and calcium is crucial, so I would continue with that too.
Hopefully some others will chime in, because I would be here asking for what to do also.

[FrogInMyShoe]

I would google your area for herp vets, surely in LA I would think there were at least one!
As far as laws and regulation on practicing vets, I would google that too! Especially if your really that dis-satisfied.

Forgot to mention, that the vit and calcium is crucial, so I would continue with that too.
Hopefully some others will chime in, because I would be here asking for what to do also.

Great, thanks for all your help. Not so much dissatisfied as just unwilling to trust another vet without proof of competency or great reviews...

[flybyferns]

Great, thanks for all your help. Not so much dissatisfied as just unwilling to trust another vet without proof of competency or great reviews...

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

[FrogInMyShoe]

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

Thanks so much, Lynn. I actually saw that a little earlier today when I was researching illnesses. Very valuable information and I wish I already had that first aid kit set up.

Anyone know if/where I can get the medicines on the above post over the counter, aside from Panacur/fenbendazole, which I already have?

[FrogInMyShoe]

gentromicin

Not sure what was going through my mind when I wrote this. I don't think that's even a medicine... Lol. The medicine she got for bacterial infection was gentamicin. Sorry everyone. Musta took grandma's meds by mistake today. Lol.

[flybyferns]

Ok. I got this Whites Tree Frog about 6 months ago. Named her Atlas (Thought she was a male at first). She was a rescue; apparently someone dropped her off outside a Petsmart in the middle of winter some time in the night. My girlfriend saw her and immediately liked her. She was nice and fat, but had this weird bump on her back. Took her to the vet about a month and a half ago and had her treated preventively for bacterial infection and parasites (gentromicin and panacur respectively). The vet was unable to tell me exactly what kind of bacteria she had without swabbing her skin and doing a lab test on it which would have cost me more than I can afford. So we put her on a round of gentromicin and she seemed to improve... I also asked the vet about this bump on her back and after a bit of poking, the vet declared that it felt like a hernia, and that the frog's internal organs were actually falling out a tiny bit. She said the frog didn't seem to be in any pain and to watch it because she may need corrective surgery. Again that was about a month a a half ago.

Two days ago the lump on her back turned white, and I am wondering if this is actually a hernia or if maybe she has a really bad bacterial infection that the gentromicin was not designed to treat. I really don't want her to suffer if I can avoid it.

I have kind of lost respect for my vet because they have not returned my calls for over a week regarding a different matter and for reasons I won't go into, I don't think that my vet is as knowledgeable with herps as she claims to be.


Any help or advice anyone could give me on this one would be much appreciated. Listed below is the pertinent data about the frog and the tank:

Enclosure: Exo Terra 18"x18"x18"
Humidity: 50-70% (I have a spray bottle with distilled water that I mist her with every morning, but I suspect she doesn't need this at all. She does seem to enjoy the mist though, which was surprising; any frog I've ever had before used to get grouchy with me when I misted them.)
Lighting: 60w neodymium day bulb, no extra heat at night (I live in Southern California and the natural temperature and humidity have been absolutely perfect for her lately)
Temperature (Fahrenheit): Day- 72 on bottom of tank, 82 on top
Night- 70 on bottom, 74 on top
Water: I use either distilled water or treated tap water (I use ZooMed Reptisafe water conditioner if I do that but usually it's distilled water). I actually built in a 6" deep water pond in her tank that is equipped with a filter to keep the water safe, so she can fully submerge if she wanted to.
Food: Small Superworms... trying to switch to dubia roaches soon. I have also started feeding her less each feeding, but I feed her every day. My thought here was that if she does have a tear in the muscle lining of her body, it would be better if huge amounts of food weren't surging through her body all at once.
Handling: About once every three weeks.
Cleaning: Cage spot cleaned daily, substrate is fiber carpet, cleaned every two weeks.
Supplementation: She was getting a multivitamin 2x a week, calciumw/ D3 2x a week.... This has changed in the last few days to calcium almost every day, multivitamins 2x a week to try to boost her calcium levels and make sure she is healthy enough to fight off any possible infections/diseases.....
Community: There are no other frogs/animals in the tank with the frog

Let me know if I left anything out. I just want my little friend to get better or leave this life as peacefully and pain free as possible if that can't be done. Thank you for your help, everyone. By the way, if anyone has a good vet in the LA County area, please let me know about it! Thanks again!

Hi,

If she were mine. I would put her in a hospital tank.
-bottom: paper towel dampened w/ de-chlorinated water and a soaking dish so monitoring her behavior, healing, food intake, and poop will be easy.
- and disinfect her enclosure in the meamtime.
-If the herp carpet is old - I would replace it, or at the very least disinfect it as well. ( 2-3 times a week for cleaning it )
-I think keeping her/enlosure clean is most important.
-consider sending Dr Frye a photo of her cyst ?
He will know what to do immediately. Perhaps some kind of soak treatment?

No disrespect to anyone , but this sounds just crazy to me ??? I also asked the vet about this bump on her back and after a bit of poking, the vet declared that it felt like a hernia, and that the frog's internal organs were actually falling out a tiny bit.

Just think. A frog living more than a month w/ a severe enough wound
w/ exposed internal organs hanging out ! Don't think so , sorry ! I would get a new vet !

[Heatheranne]

I agree, it looks like a pus-filled cyst or abscess. A hernia would more likely be on his ventral abdomen (under belly). It looks as if it needs to be drained, but I would not do it yourself without guidance and sterile tools.

I would email Dr.Frye, like Grif recommended.

Good luck!

[FrogLoving17]

I am agreeing with all of the helpful comments above I truly think that as soon as you contact Dr.Frye (or if you haven't already) that he WILL be able to diagnose what is wrong. And I also am sorta new to owning a Whites Tree Frog, and I used to spray my frog on his body with Distilled water, but it lacks the minerals so when you spray your cage and if you spray your frog too, I would switch to spring water. ( i now use Ozarka spring water for spraying and everything else my frog needs) I hope your little Froggy Buddy gets better

[FrogInMyShoe]

Thank you all so much for you assistance and guidance thus far. I actually contacted Dr. Frye before I created an account here, so I am just waiting for him to respond. Again, thanks to all of you for your help, and thanks in advance to all those who have yet to respond. Take care, everyone.

[FrogInMyShoe]

I agree, it looks like a pus-filled cyst or abscess. A hernia would more likely be on his ventral abdomen (under belly). It looks as if it needs to be drained, but I would not do it yourself without guidance and sterile tools.

I would email Dr.Frye, like Grif recommended.

Good luck!

About the draining part... If I were to need to do that myself, what tools would I need? I won't be doing this unless I absolutely have to, but I would like to know what exactly I would need in order to keep the job clean and as safe as possible for my frog. Type of medical blade, topical antibiotic, and good or bad signs to look for after it's done would all be greatly appreciated so that I can understand this process as thoroughly as possible to know how to respond to different situations. Also, I would like to start this kit just so I have it all ready in case I need to do it now or in the future. Thanks.

[Heatheranne]

I would recommend asking a vet. I am a nurse and I also watched my vet do Twiggy's old infected gecko wounds. Being I don't know what's exactly in the lump, I don't feel comfortable advising.

Is the lump soft or firm?

[FrogInMyShoe]

I would recommend asking a vet. I am a nurse and I also watched my vet do Twiggy's old infected gecko wounds. Being I don't know what's exactly in the lump, I don't feel comfortable advising.

Is the lump soft or firm?

Thanks for your response. The lump seems to be soft, it squishes right into her body when touched (or at least it used to; I have not touched her since the discoloration).

I actually heard back from Dr. Frye, and he advised baytril and silver sulfadiazene; he thought it was an abscess from the picture as well, and I ended up ordering the meds from his office. Now that I have been relieved of way more money than I probably should be, the meds are in the mail heading to me overnight and the fear that I was gonna have to bury a third frog in 9 months (thanks, Petsmart) has now been replaced with hope that my little green friend will be ok after all.

Thanks everyone for your help. I'll try to remember to post here again when shes all better... On a separate note, I have found a web site that sells many of the medicines that Dr. Frye recommends, and that all vet offices absolutely rip you off on. http://www.beardeddragons.co/bearded...te=common/home They have Silver sulfadiazene, baytril, liquid panacur, and some others as well. If you happen to know what the dosage is for your size and type of frog, you can buy the medicine off this site for literally a fraction of the cost and treat the problem yourself. Or you could purchase this stuff and then ask Dr. Frye for advice on how to cut the doses down to acceptable mixtures for treating your animal. Hope this helps everyone.

[Heatheranne]

You're welcome. I'm glad you heard back from the doctor .

[flybyferns]

Great News
Keep us posted !!!!!
We love happy endings !

[Bolisnide]

This is great news, hope she feels better soon!

[FrogInMyShoe]

Update: Atlas is doing well. The abscess on her side/back broke and drained and the skin is now healing. She has been returned to her normal tank and is happy to have her pond back. Infection is gone, and she is back to her normal routines. Thanks for your help, everyone.

[helm96]

Love to hear news like this. Great job taking care of your little froggie!